Trucker Strikes Diesel Prices

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:02 pm

The Federal Reserve is a no bid contractor with an eternal contract :!:

I see this as the admission of guilt on the part of Congress that they did not do their job and regulate the money supply :!:

This supports retmil46's argument.

There is another and more stupid scam being hawked by the Idiot who cant sing and lives near Nashville, TN where Carbon Credits will be bought and sold. :twisted:

What do you all think this will do to Diesel prices and the cost of Trucking :?:

We ain't seen any thing yet :!:

kccrd · **Joined:** Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:35 pm **Posts:** 267

Don't worry there will be a bubble just like all the dot coms of the late 90s remember those . We will have a big correction in the price of oil just like the price of gold. The price of oil versus gold is exactly the same spread as it was in the early sixties,oil was $6.00 per barrel and gold was $36.00 and ounce think about that. The problem now is the devaluation of our dollar that's what we need to be concerned about.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:21 am

Whatever the truckers dont haul will just be pushed onto railroads.
The railroads can do a much more efficient job of hauling goods than trucks
over long distances.

This will leave trucks for short distances, from the rail yard to final destination.

I suggest investing in BNSF (BNI), CSX, NS (NSC), and UP (UNP).

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:02 pm

From what I'm hearing on other forums, from people that are directly involved with railroads, is that there isn't that much (if any) surge capacity available to take up the slack from an OTR strike.

Seemingly in concert with the loss of manufacturing jobs, their rolling stock and operational rail lines have contracted over the past few decades. The shift to "just in time" delivery via truck and air freight has left them with mainly bulk goods to transport. And if the business isn't there, you're not going to maintain rail cars and track that you don't need.

Unlike a fleet of OTR trucks, which can be built and put into service in a matter of weeks if need be, it would be on the order of years for the railroads to get any significant new rolling stock built, and track rebuilt and put back into service.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:16 pm

With my extensive travel for my job, I have seen many abandon rail lines, some of which have been turned into Bike Paths. Your assessment of the rolling stock is right to the point as well. Add to that the out dated locomotives that are just starting to use the level of diesel technology that started in the ORTs in '89. If the Rail Roads were to take over more of the business going to the ORTs the Tree Huggers would start going after them as hard as they have the ORTs and us.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

warp2diesel wrote:

If the Rail Roads were to take over more of the business going to the ORTs the Tree Huggers would start going after them as hard as they have the ORTs and us.

Actually, the "tree huggers" have been advocating for rebuilding and making greater use of America's rail infrastructure for decades. Much more fuel efficient than road transport for shipping, and high speed rail is a lot more efficient than cars or airlines for moving people from point A to point B.

Rail has died because politicians, with the backing of the trucking and oil industry, cut much of the federal financial support for it. Amtrak is a dirty word with many "conservative" politicians, but it is $$ for Amtrak maintenance that kept up the rail system for shipping use in most of the country. Amtrak is now on life support, and all that money got shifted into highways.

Another area where Europe and Japan have behaved in a much more rational fashion than the US. Sometimes a person (or a country) is better off accepting responsibility for the fact that they made stupid choices and then going about fixing them, rather than trying to find a scapegoat (tree huggers, Al Gore, disco, etc...). The guys who were calling for higher fuel economy standards in the 90's were called all sorts of nasty names, now if we'd listened to them we might not be in this mess on fuel prices.

If these fuel prices hold, the trucking industry is going to collapse and start begging for a taxpayer bailout just like the mortage institutions as more businesses turn to rail for their shipping needs. On Marketplace radio last night there was a story detailing how this is already starting to happen, with Wall Street now pouring money into rail shippers and pulling it out of trucking.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Reflex wrote:

The best thing the feds could do is bite the bullet, let some financial institutions collapse, encourage people to pay off thier debts, balance the budget and work on paying off the national debt, and eat the pain for a decade. We'd then be in the best position in the world for explosive economic growth since most nations carry large amounts of debt.

But no one in DC has the guts to do that, politicians don't win election by promising a decade of economic pain, even if the long term benefits could last decades beyond that.

I'm down with that, but watch the consensus on biting the bullet evaporate when we start looking for places to cut spending. Cut $$ for old people and school kids? Sure! But how about the $1 billion a day in Iraq, the border fence and "Star Wars"?

We blame the politicians for not being willing to make hard choices, but the public is so polarized and easily manipulated that we won't let them make hard choices. If they cut Social Security, AARP will come after Republicans with meat axes. If they pull out of Iraq, the right wingers will come after the Democrats as "soft on terror." And meanwhile the economy and future of the country continues to circle the bowl.

Man I'm pessimistic. I need to go fishing.

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:52 pm

Actually it isn't so much the equipment (freight cars and locomotives) but
the rails themselves.
I know CSX has this problem. Most of their tracks are 30+ years old and
getting really close to being unsafe. But rather than replace the rails, they
just set lower speed limits for those sections of track. NS is starting to
expand and rebuild to allow for more traffic at higher speeds.

NS also uses a system that allows OTR trailers to run directly on the rails.
(called their Triple Crown service) It's rather simple and does not require a
sophisticated loading system using specialized cranes and loaders.
Meaning a dedicated loading site is not required. Wabash builds the actual
53' trailers, called RoadRailers, and can even modify existing ones.

Most of the abandoned lines you see are the result of mergers. When two
competing railroads decide to join forces they often abandon old and less
profitable lines to help increase operating efficiency.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:57 pm

Agreed we have let our rail infrastructure decay miserably, where rail lines have been pulled up and lost I doubt we will see them ever go in again, it is a different world and is too hard to reestablish rail lines even when there is a right of way.

Rail makes many orders of magnitude more sense than OTR trucking, however the allure of speedy delivery from point to point has spoiled us since the 1960s when interstate's first became good conduits for trucking.

This is an ever changing world, and what worked 40 years ago doesn't necessarily work now. Like a species that fails to adapt if we don't change we cannot hope to persist.

I speak in generalities of course, which allows me to express my thoughts without having to come up with more specific information to support them.

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

I have been seeing ads for CSX, it shows a Civic Hybrid that is running the road ... a voiceover comes on and says "what good is a fuel efficient hybrid to the environment, if the vehicle that transported it to the dealership wasn't very clean? This is why we are pleased to say that our trains can carry xxx tons of cargo over 128 miles on a single gallon of fuel" .... that kind of advertising gets into your head.

Ive taken AMTRAK from one side of the country (west coast) to Memphis and back. I've not gone East on it yet. I want to. I've always liked trains, and I've always liked diesel engines (but as a kid, the air brakes on big rigs made me piss myself -- no joke).

I am in favor of helping to reduce the required maintenance on the US roadways and lowering transportation costs if the rail system gets overhauled. It really makes more sense, to me, to use rail for cross-country transport than trucks. Less delays (they have their own "highway" to run on), and many places (like Solae in Memphis, where my father works) have rail junctions built into the property to load and unload with. Not hard to do if your company is near the existing or proposed line expansion.

NC is expanding it's rail system in some parts, as my coworkers home is being bought by the Transit Authority for the new proposed rail line (commercial, not commuter).

jdbewl01 · **Joined:** Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:00 am **Posts:** 9

i read an article recently explaining why diesel prices are going up faster than gasoline. it has to do with the refining process; out of each barrel of oil we get 15% diesel, 35% gasoline, and the reaminder is used for jet fuel and other petroleum based products. europe uses a different refining process that produces 25% diesel and 25% gasoline. i think the faster increase we see in diesel is from lower available supply.

Coal Cracker · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:08 am

The Railroads Built This Country, And It'll Be The Railroads That Will Be Our Only Salvation.
History Can Repeat Itself, But We Must Help It.

I worked for A railroad That Had Taken Over Regional Rail Lines In Pa. The Company At That Time Conrail Had Let The Customers In The Region Die, Because Of Pi$$ Poor Service.

If They'd Only Kept Their Nose To The Grinstone, They'd Be Hauling Out Unit Coal Trains, Various Paper Products, Wood Products, Produce, Plastics, Etc. Like The Rail company That Owns It Now.

The Tonnage That Can Be Moved By One Single Even Older Locomotive Beats Trucking HANDS DOWN!

More Local Lite Rail Lines Should Be Set Back Up For Commuters, Like They We're In The !900s-70's.

We Gotta Start Movin By Rail Again

flash7210 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:14 am

Conrail is an interesting story...

Both Conrail and Amtrak were established by the Federal Govmt to help
restore the American railroads. Conrail was actually pretty successful in
that it eventually began to turn a profit and paid back all its bonds.
In 2000, work began to de-consolidate Conrail and split it up among its
two biggest regional competitors, NS and CSX.

Here in FL, back in 2000, citizens voted "yes" to begin development of a
high-speed rail system for passenger service. Then in 2004, citizens voted
"yes" to repeal the Florida High Speed rail act. So, no more plans for high
speed passenger service.

Although Florida's plan was far from perfect, it coinsided with similar plans
in GA, SC, and NC. In short, if all four of these states went forward with
their high-speed rail plans, combined with Amtraks NE corridor, you could
have high-speed passenger rail service from Boston to Miami.

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

COULD.. but won't.

I do not support a stupid light rail system. The proposal was to go from Downtown raleigh, to all three of the schools (letting students ride for free) and to RTP. NO AIRPORT!

Airport --> Downtown Raleigh
Airport ---> RTP

If it does not function this way, I simply won't support it. Toll the hell out of the new I-540 and I-95 at both ends of the state, generate the funds (since we have utterly incompetent management of transit monies) and start building a functional train.

For those unfamiliar, RTP = Research Triangle Park, the largest # of PhD's per capita in the USA
"The schools" referrs to Duke University, The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and North Carolina State University. Duke, Chapel Hill, and Raleigh (Cary) make the triangle.

Lovely place to live, some days. Other days I wish I were even further south. Like Georgia.

kccrd · **Joined:** Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:35 pm **Posts:** 267

You can refine oil any way you want, you could make all diesel from a barrel of oil with much less byproduct left over . there is much less refining taking place to make diesel and it cost much less to make than unleaded gasoline. The railroads do not use so called diesel they use a much less refined oil like a # 4 grade much to thick for our CRDs the only reason I know this is because a neighbor of mine works for the UP and feeds me all this info about the railroads and they even have there own retirement plan, they do not participate in our social security / rip off system.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:08 am

I am a strong conservationist and support Rail Roads including passenger trains where they work, but lets get real.
Most of these political activists only strongly support rail for mass transit.
Often they see the rail freight as a necessary evil and they have endlessly stated that they want to bring the internal combustion engine to an end.

As much as I like to see Solar Power developed there is no way you can extract 3000 HP out of solar panels that can put out 200 Watts to 1500 Watts per square meter, there ain't enough room on the roof of a Locomotive. Besides, where are you goilng to place enough batteries to run at night or on a cloudy day?

Tree Huggers have ranted and raved about Ozone that comes from Nitrous Oxide (Nitrous Oxide is the excuse for our EGR Valves) under just the right conditions, but ignore the noticeable quantities of Ozone produced by arcing at the electric contacts to the over head wires, electric rails, or DC motors that are used by many light rail passenger trains. Can there be technology be used to solve this, YES BUT they choose to look the other way and not harass them.

When Rail Roads get used more as they should along with water transportation along rivers, the Tree Hugger will look up for a moment and see a puff of smoke and rail roads and tug boats will get the same harassment we get now.

The one redeeming fact about larger engines is that the injection systems can be upgraded and put the Tree Huggers back to having intimate relations with their trees.
If the Rail Roads and water shippers are smart, they will do these upgrades as part of their maintenance program so that they can save fuel and reduce emissions at the same time.
Fuel injection manufactures who supply the systems should get in action, engineer these upgrades based upon current production configurations, and obsolete out the old parts.
The Fuel Injection manufactures should do the same for medium duty trucks and OTR as well.

More efficient engines will reduce fuel consumption and help control prices.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:55 am

Part of the decline in RR freight is because of federal rules and regulations that go back to when carrying people was their cash cow and frieght was a necessary evil :roll:

Then Henry Ford made the affordable model "T" and we could go when and where we wanted. In Central Ohio at the turn of the century, 1900, we had a very effecient "inter urban" system that went at least 50 miles in all directions from Columbus. They were powered by electricity and were mostly single cars. Sound like light rail :?:

It's decline corresponded with the introduction of the "T". On some state roads you can still see the roadbeds. On other roads the locks for the Erie Canel system can still be seen. They were done when rail roads came into exitance :roll:

Things constantly change :wink:

One thing is for sure, when any branch of any government tells us they are going to help, we're just getting deeper into debt :oops:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:01 pm

CARB is already trying to go after waterborne traffic in CA. There latest plan involves not only river and intercoastal traffic, but cruise and merchant ships that pull into port, requiring them to burn ULSD instead of bunker fuel while docked in CA.

And in a display of their complete ignorance of international maritime law, they want to extend this requirement to any vessel operating within 200 miles of the CA coast. U.S. territorial waters (and legal jurisdiction) only extend out to 12 miles, after that it's international waters.

The only way this would fly is if you concluded a treaty between all the nations whose vessels use these waters and they AGREED to have their ships comply with this requirement.

If CARB believes they can somehow FORCE other NATIONS to comply with their STATE mandates in international waters, only thing I can say is they must be growing some good weed out there these days.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:26 pm

kcfoxie wrote:

COULD.. but won't.

I do not support a stupid light rail system. The proposal was to go from Downtown raleigh, to all three of the schools (letting students ride for free) and to RTP. NO AIRPORT!

Airport --> Downtown Raleigh
Airport ---> RTP

If it does not function this way, I simply won't support it. Toll the hell out of the new I-540 and I-95 at both ends of the state, generate the funds (since we have utterly incompetent management of transit monies) and start building a functional train.

For those unfamiliar, RTP = Research Triangle Park, the largest # of PhD's per capita in the USA
"The schools" referrs to Duke University, The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and North Carolina State University. Duke, Chapel Hill, and Raleigh (Cary) make the triangle.

Lovely place to live, some days. Other days I wish I were even further south. Like Georgia.

We've got similar nonsense going on in this area, Charlotte/Lake Norman/I-77 Corridor. Charlotte and their jacka$$ mayor (who's day job is a VP with one of the 3 major banks headquartered there) have been trying to pawn off an unworkable version of light rail, using an already existing NS track line. Budget has already more than doubled since it's inception, trying to pay for it by jacking up sales and property taxes, only 3 small rail cars planned, track and parking areas are nowhere close to the commuters they're supposedly intended to service, and now they're saying that the rail cars won't be able to use warning horns at any crossings because the noise would "disturb the local residents"!

About a year ago, they had a conference with the commissioners from our county, trying to get us to pick up the tab to extend the rail line up into our area and also provide the land to construct a maintenance facility and overnight parking area for the rail cars - ie, we'd get to pick up the tab for keeping THEIR light rail system running.

Guess we still have a few sensible people in local government - our county commissioners took one look at the plan, saw that it was going to involve exorbitant cost for little or no useage by the intended commuters, and basically told them "no thanks - lack of prior planning on YOUR part doesn't constitute a crisis on OUR part".

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:29 pm

retmil46 makes a good point. CARB worries about ships in international waters off their coast.
But they could not care less about vehicles from Mexico with expired plates.
I am sure DI FI's HUBBY will defend his client the Chinese Government Shipping Company if CARB comes after them for emissions issues with their ships as he did when they sold fully automatic weapons by the crate to the Street Gangs back a few years ago.

Trucker Strikes Diesel Prices

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