CARB can't make it happen. CARB went up against GM, who complied with their laws and beat every other car maker to the EV game with their Saturn-based EV1. They then set up a larger focus group to prove there was no market for an EV, poorly underfunded the advertising (which made it look bad) and then they got it wrapped up in the federal courts. What did we end up with? States can't force auto makers to their little rules, only the federal government can.

Who Killed the Electric Car is a rather fascinating documentary about the good things GM did to improve on the EV designs and how they led the way, and also how they killed it entirely. The patent for the battery is now owned by ConocoPhillips. Tell me that's not a conspiracy.

_________________
1998 VW New Beetle TDI & 2006 Jetta TDI Manual
No more: 2005 Stone White Liberty CRD
Powered in part by Biodiesel and Open Source Software.

Its not a conspiracy.

Seriously. The cars cost more than a million each to build, while manufacturing on a mass scale would bring that down, it would not make it under the $20k mark that it would have to hit for a car with a driving range of 40 miles to be practical.

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2006 Jeep Liberty Sport CRD

I believe the way to motivate ships to use the cleaner fuel near ports is to not let them in if they don't! Those ships have huge engines and produce quite a bit of emissions. I know this is a problem in the northwest and ships are being required to plug into the grid for power usage rather than run there engines.

I don't think water is very efficient for travel, unless you are talking about floating down a river. There is quite a bit of friction with water.

I want to see more rail. It can be faster than driving and is a great way to move around a country without an automobile. In Europe you can travel to quite a lot of places with trains, much more so than here in the US.

......you do not try to go too fast. For the large cargo ships they can be towed into port with tugs that run on ULSD. Plugging into the grid for ship power should be common sense, not rocket science. Just like locomotives, very large diesel engines on ships can be upgraded to burn more efficient and cleaner. Phasing in upgrades as part of maintenance intervals would be the smartest and most cost effective way to do so.
Also for the large cargo ships, when the new generation of terrorist proof nuclear fuel rods come on line, oil burner boilers should be phased out and small safe reactors phased in. This type of upgrade will be done by contractors and ship builders. I am sure the fuel cost bottom line along with benefit to the air will wrap up the deal.

Steve

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2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

I can tell from the way this discussion is going that some people on here know very little concerning marine engineering or how a ship actually operates.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

I won't nitpick, but the estimated cost to builld each of the GM EV-1's was around $52,000. That's not unreasonable for a car wtih a 250-300 mile range on $4 of electricity. GM did to electric, what it did to Diesel engines in my opinion: destroyed the concept in the mind of buyers by releasing a home-made poorly designed product. Score one for Detroit!

_________________
1998 VW New Beetle TDI & 2006 Jetta TDI Manual
No more: 2005 Stone White Liberty CRD
Powered in part by Biodiesel and Open Source Software.

You care to enlighten the rest of us then? Seems like a good time to put up some knowledge.

Lets not forget that Ford build and sold an electric vehicle too. In the late
90's made an all electric Ranger. Sold mainly for fleet service and a few are
still out on the road. Do a search, you might even find a few for sale.

_________________
U.S. Army Retired

Actually they crop up on ebay often. They were offered for sale to anyone who leased it, Toyota did the same with their EV RAV4 I believe. Only Honda and GM destroyed their EVs and refused to sell them to lessees.

_________________
1998 VW New Beetle TDI & 2006 Jetta TDI Manual
No more: 2005 Stone White Liberty CRD
Powered in part by Biodiesel and Open Source Software.

250 to 300 mile range?

EV-1 got around 80 to 90 miles max on a good day with the standard lead acid battery pack, and pushed maybe 150 with a nickel hydride pack in trials.

Only electric I've seen that came close to that type of range was a prototype called the Sunrise made by a company called Solectria. It was in the news several years ago when it made a publicity run from New York to Boston, around 200 miles, and had around 25% capacity remaining. They even coughed up the money to have it crash tested and certified, and offered to do a deal to let OEM's produce them under license. The response was deafening silence, even from OEM's in Europe and Asia. And since it used an Ovonics nickel hydride pack, of which GM owned a significant stake, and GM was in the midst of court battles with CARB to repeal the EV portions of their mandates and in particular arguing you couldn't build and EV with a consistent 100 miles range, they came down quite hard on the management of Ovionics for even selling a prototyoe pack to Solectria.

The EV-1 was never offered for sale, lease only. And at that, GM used a questionaire that potential customers had to fill out before they'd even talk to them about leasing - you had to live within a certain distance of the dealership, your income had to be above a certain level, etc - to where they ended up turning away 9 out of every 10 people interested in leasing the EV-1. Even at that, they leased all that were available, and had a waiting list to where they could have leased double the number they did.

Add to that the fact the EV-1 used a proprietary charging system that was quite expensive, to where the vehicle couldn't make use of the network of public EV charging stations that had already been established to some extent.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler

Well, the effect of fuel prices and the crappy economy is hitting home with the OTR manufacturers now.

We just got word Thursday afternoon, that at the Freightliner Cleveland NC plant they'll be laying off an additional 1500 employees June 6th. People affected were hired Aug 18th '96 or later - going back nearly 12 years. And yes, I get caught in it too - my hire date was Aug 18th '97.

That reduces the plant to one shift operation, and even at that, with the lack of orders, they will still see 25% to 50% shutdown time each month for the forseeable future.

CEO himself flew in from Portland for a town hall meeting to make the announcement, and he was less than happy about it himself - unlike 3rd shift which has always been an on/off proposition based on the market, this is cutting into the core of his experienced workers - most with more than a decade's experience, most veterans or former military with a strong work ethic and low absenteeism - that won't be easily replaced, and if the layoff lasts more than a few months, he'll be lucky to get even a fraction of them back.

According to the CEO - late last year orders had started recovering from the hit taken with '07 emissions standards, and the new Cascadia model and DD15 engine had proven to be a hit with the OTR companies - most of the orders we had received in the past year were for this model and engine, and several big OTR companies that hadn't bought Freightliners for years placed orders with us again based on this truck/engine combo.

However, come late January with the sudden dramatic rise in diesel prices, the subprime mortgage/credit/Bear Stearns mess, and the economy in general tanking, the bottom dropped out of orders. Several large OTR companies that in the past have been Freightliner's bread and butter at this time have ZERO - none, nada - trucks on order FOR THE REST OF THE CALENDAR YEAR.

For the largest OTR manufacturer with better than 1/3 of the market share to have this low an order roster, that should be telling as to the status of the OTR industry and the economy as a whole.

CEO stated he had recently attended the industry's North American Truck Show, and that the mood was glum and somber. The OTR's were telling him that the freight and the business just wasn't out there now, or that customers were canceling because they just couldn't afford the fuel surcharges and overall shipping costs any more. Several of the OTR's told him they were selling their older units to Russia and other countries, and replacing them by pulling newer lower mileage units out of their rental pools for full time use (as their rental business had also been hit hard), instead of buying new trucks.

CEO stated he had no idea when things would recover - he said he's made several forecasts himself over the past two years and been consistently wrong - but a couple times in what seemed a Freudian slip mentioned March '09 - it seems they see this as lasting at least another year.

And this is affecting the plants in Canada and Mexico as well, also seeing layoffs and shutdown time. He mentioned the new plant under construction in Mexico, scheduled for opening next year, and said that if they'd known 2 years ago that the market was going to be in this shape, they wouldn't have even broken ground on it, and that if this continues that plant will most likely remain idle for some time.

_________________
Mitchell Oates
'87 MB 300D Diamond Blue Metallic
'87 MB 300D - R.I.P. 12/08
'05 Sport CRD Stone White
Provent CCV Filter/AT2525 Muffler
Stanadyne 30 u/Cat 2 u Fuel Filters
Fumoto Drain/Fleetguard LF3487 Oil filter
V6 Airbox/Amsoil EAA Air Filter
Suncoast TC/Shift Kit/Aux Cooler
Kennedy Lift Pump/Return Fuel Cooler