Mahindra Truck/SUV diesel, 35 - 40+ mpg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:17 am

The plan to introduce Mahindra diesels into the United States started several years ago. For those of you who are skeptic, I wouldn’t write-off Mahindra. Mahindra comes from a strong economic developing country that is advancing in technology. Better technology allows Mahindra to sell a good product at a good cost. Times have changed and the United States is very much a global market, more so today than ever before. As a matter of fact, the U.S. distributor for Mahindra will be Global Vehicles USA. It’s just not Mahindra looking to push the small diesel market, you also need to be aware that Toyota, Nissan, and others have already devoted loads of money into diesel technology. Soon, many trucks and cars will offer a diesel option. Diesel-hybrid technology is going to be very impressive, and it might be possible that Mahindra will be the first to do so in 2010. There are many auto-manufactures wanting to launch their diesel version into the United States. Let’s face it, the United States isn’t as diverse in diesel technology as many other countries. Mahindra has done their homework on this assignment, and I suspect that they will follow through very well. Chrysler has been pushing the diesel issue for a few years now. The Liberty CRD was a failure in design, but a success in sales. GM has recently gotten serious about introducing more diesels in the US, but not until Mahindra, Toyota, and Nissan have said they were devoted to it. Ford still doesn’t know if they want to tackle the emissions issues, mainly because they are tying to figure out if they want to make their own diesels vs letting someone else build them. To stay afloat, I imagine Ford, GM, and Chrysler will need to merge with foreign auto manufactures just to keep up. That’s my 2 cents.

biggiefl · **Posted:** Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:11 pm

Isuzu pulled out of the US on Jan 31st...no more Joe Isuzu for us gringos. They will keep their larger commercial trucks here but the rebadged Colorados and Trailblazers are gone. Funny thing is Isuzu came here with their small diesels that they put in Chevy Luvs and Chevettes for a couple years. Then they started doing their own thing...then less than 30 years later they are gone...hope Mahindra does not follow suit.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Isuzu is still alive and well in the US. Every one of those big GM Duramax diesels sporting an American flag sticker is powered by an Isuzu Duramax engine, and all those big GM box vans are actually Isuzus, built to Isuzu design specks and powered by Isuzu engines. Isuzu is a global leader in diesel technology. Funny factoid--Toyota, who owns Hino (one of the largest diesel truck makers in the world) bought a share of Isuzu because Isuzu has been working on clean diesel technology while Toyota/Hino was whining about the US and European regs and trying to get them changed. We may soon see a 3/4 ton Toyota Tundra built in the USA but powered by an Isuzu engine.

That was part of Isuzu's problem, though. They and Mazda never really managed to create much of a brand identity of their own in the US, and ended up selling a large chunk of themselves to American car companies (GM and Ford, respectively).

That said, Isuzu's 1980's Troopers and Trooper II's were available with quite a nice little diesel, and I still see some of them on the road. I knew a guy in college who had one, he claimed to 30-35 mpg on the highway.

Have to disagree on the claim made above that if Liberty's were lighter they would automatically not have the structural integrity to go off road. Structural integrity has more to do with engineering and the quality of materials used than weight. One can design something sloppy and use parts for much larger vehicles and make it strong by making way overbuilt and very, very heavy (Ford pickups anyone?) Our tiny little Liberty CRD's weigh about the same as a 4-door Land Rover Defender diesel or a 4 door Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon. Both of those vehicles are substantially larger than our CRD's and vastly more off-road worthy.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

dieselenthusiast - Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Kia all meet the same qualifications you mention, coming from high tech nations with good track records in their home markets. All are evaluating leaving the US market. I think there is plenty of reason to be skeptical about Mahindra or anyone else promising a miracle car, the simple fact is that all the planning in the world does not make up for a lack of experience in a mature market. The enviromental, safety and customer preference requirements of the US are considerably higher than in most of the world, only Europe and Japan really compare(and how has Mahindra done there?).

The foreign brands that have done well in the US have done so by either filling niches(German companies have done this well) or by taking advantage of stupid mistakes US carmakers made(Japanese carmakers).

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:40 pm

It's true...the Liberty is so tiny..yet it weighs 4,300 lbs. in CRD trim. That's insanity. I could drive mine 55 mph all day long and only get 25 mpg or less. It's a pig and that's part of the problem.

These pickups give us hope. A 4-door pickup that you can actually do heavy work with, and still get 30+ mpg?? That will sell like crazy in the U.S. right now. The only thing that will hold them back is the styling...those trucks are so different looking that what Americans are used to. Otherwise, they will sell those puppies like hotcakes.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:57 pm

Reflex wrote:

dieselenthusiast - Mitsubishi, Hyundai and Kia all meet the same qualifications you mention, coming from high tech nations with good track records in their home markets. All are evaluating leaving the US market.

It dosen't sound like Hyundai is "evaluating leaving the US market" to me.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article ... pgfeDkZZLQ
And this investment is not peanuts in any country.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/specialrepo ... 183066.htm
But it does look like Kia is having problems all over.
http://www.feedsfarm.com/article/fd36d2 ... 6e2cd.html :lol:

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

Reflex wrote:

all the planning in the world does not make up for a lack of experience in a mature market.

That is exactly why the time is ripe for a company like Mahindra to come in and innovate. Mature markets tend to become static until a disruptive force enters them, either in the form of a new innovator (like Apple and Itunes in the traditional music industry), major technological innovation (Sony and transistor radio's killing established US electronics companies in the 50's and 60's), or some market shifting event (oil shocks in the 70's opening a path for Toyota and Honda to become major players in a very mature US auto market).

I would argue that with $3-4.00 a gallon fuel, there is a major disruption occurring in the US transportation industry. What had stabilized since the 1980's into another mature market (with the Big 3, Toyota, and Honda controlling 90% of the market), now faces some major changes. When the average pick up sold today struggles to break 20 mpg on the highway, a new company offering 30 mpg vehicles has a major leg up on the competition. Does that assure success? No. But it certainly creates an opening.

As far as their technological claims being unrealistic, why? I recall an article from last year on a couple guys in England doing a hyper mile experiment with a standard two wheel drive Mitsubishi diesel pick up, and getting nearly 40 mpg. Seems reasonable that a Mahindra vehicle with a smaller, more technologically advanced engine and a six speed transmission could break 30 mpg.

As far as the hybrid goes, people seem to confuse "hybrid" with "Prius." The Prius is a full hybrid system, where the wheels can be powered by either the small gasser engine or the batteries/electric motor. It is much cheaper, and less technologically challenging, to build a power assist hybrid, where the vehicle has a traditional drive train and the the hybrid system is only used to assist the engine during acceleration, and when starting up (such as the system already found on the Honda Civic Hybrid, Saturn Vue hybrid, etc...). The Vue hybrid is now rated at 32 mpg on the highway... don't you think it is reasonable that diesel hybrid in a similar-sized vehicle to could achieve a little better than that?

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Hyundai and Kia are both owned by the same corporate entity, and its interesting that Hyundai is doing well now, a year ago the talk was that they were going to retreat from this market. Time will tell, but I have serious doubts, Hyundai is going 'upscale' and I think thats a very difficult sell for them in this market.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:12 pm

I agree with whoever said it's going to come down to whether they can back up the product or not. Americans won't buy it if they don't think they can get support when they need it. Parts, maintenance, warranty repairs, etc. If the dealer network is small, and you have to go to the buying dealer for service, that will suck for a lot of folks, esp. in rural areas. If they can prove that the trucks will be taken care of for years to come after the purchase...that will be the cherry on top for most men looking at buying one. Personally, I'd like to have one in place of my Dodge Ram right now. I love my Ram...but at 12 mpg it's not practical to drive it everyday now. This Mahindra is a truck that you could drive everyday and get better mileage than the Toyota Camrys you pass.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:03 am

"Mahindra has engineers in India and Michigan working to meet the new EPA rules. It also is working with engineers from two key suppliers: German engine component supplier Robert Bosch GmbH and Austrian powertrain developer AVL Powertrain Engineering Inc. The Mahindra product line will rely on Bosch diesel engine technology that has never been used in the United States."

onthehunt · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:36 am

It will be a niche vehicle. Toyota can't even sell pick-ups with Ford or GM but you think an Indian company will?? Renault comes to mind. Came here and won some big awards and were popular for a couple of years, then faded away.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

onthehunt wrote:

It will be a niche vehicle. Toyota can't even sell pick-ups with Ford or GM but you think an Indian company will??

I don't disagree that Mahindra might be a flash in the pan, but Toyota can't sell pick ups? That seems odd, given that they largle invented the small pickup market and have been at the top of it for the last two decades, and if you eliminate fleet sales, the Tacoma is kicking the snot out of it's domestic rivals.

Pickups have been the last hold out of brand identity buyers, guys who will buy nothing but Fords or Chevy's even if 25% of the trucks were spontaneously combusting on the test drive. We'll see if that continues in the age of $3.50 gas, and 14 mpg domestic trucks.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:38 am

Threeweight wrote:

onthehunt wrote:

It will be a niche vehicle. Toyota can't even sell pick-ups with Ford or GM but you think an Indian company will??

I don't disagree that Mahindra might be a flash in the pan, but Toyota can't sell pick ups? That seems odd, given that they largle invented the small pickup market and have been at the top of it for the last two decades, and if you eliminate fleet sales, the Tacoma is kicking the snot out of it's domestic rivals.

Pickups have been the last hold out of brand identity buyers, guys who will buy nothing but Fords or Chevy's even if 25% of the trucks were spontaneously combusting on the test drive. We'll see if that continues in the age of $3.50 gas, and 14 mpg domestic trucks.

Toyota hardly sells trucks is true. Their best seller is the smaller Tacoma, and it only sold less than a quarter-million units last year. Even the lowest selling domestic..Dodge...is selling more gas guzzling Rams than that.

The reason people are holding onto their Fords and GMs and Dodges is because the Toyota trucks are guzzling gas too. Tacomas with the V6 are mid-teens for mileage, and the new Tundra is a 12-13 mpg truck on it's best day. Plus, Toyota trucks are junk and that is finally starting to come to the surface after years of great PR convincing Americans that Toyota made gold. All the recalls and defects with their products (cracked beds, broken driveshafts, broken camshafts, cracking windshields, on and on..) are finally catching up with them. Why buy foreign junk that drinks the same amount of gas when you can buy a Dodge or Ford for less money that works harder and is cheaper to buy parts for??

This Mahindra truck...well that is a TOTALLY different ballgame. Now you are talking 30+ mpg...and that equals $$$$ in the pocket. And when you start talking cash, then Americans listen.

Uffe · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:53 am

LibertyCRD wrote:

Toyota hardly sells trucks is true. Their best seller is the smaller Tacoma, and it only sold less than a quarter-million units last year. Even the lowest selling domestic..Dodge...is selling more gas guzzling Rams than that.

The reason people are holding onto their Fords and GMs and Dodges is because the Toyota trucks are guzzling gas too. Tacomas with the V6 are mid-teens for mileage, and the new Tundra is a 12-13 mpg truck on it's best day. Plus, Toyota trucks are junk and that is finally starting to come to the surface after years of great PR convincing Americans that Toyota made gold. All the recalls and defects with their products (cracked beds, broken driveshafts, broken camshafts, cracking windshields, on and on..) are finally catching up with them. Why buy foreign junk that drinks the same amount of gas when you can buy a Dodge or Ford for less money that works harder and is cheaper to buy parts for??

You guys must get the bad toyotas over there then. It's very popular here in europe to own a toyota, a brand which is equal to unsurpassed reliability over the last 5 years.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:00 am

Yeah they are pretty trashy. The 1980s models were rusted before they even got them off the ships. There is a new "under the table" recall on the 1990s Tacoma trucks because the frames are rusting...some to the point of having holes in the frames, and Toyota is literally buying back 10-15 year old trucks from customers to try and keep things under a positive light. And the 2000s models are plagued with more problems than I care to list. Toyota has never sold quality trucks here, and it's taken 30 years but people are finally starting to figure that out.

I think this Mahindra truck holds some promise actually. It sounds like they are building it rugged, and that is good. Though rugged comes with the penalty of weight, and weight eats fuel mileage. So we'll see...

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

35-40mpg -> emissions, -5mpg -> safety, -5mpg = 25-30mpg

Not bad, but also not unexpected. After all they are putting in a 2.2L engine, significantly smaller than the one in our CRD.

Thats my prediction of thier real world mileage when everything gets inevitably added and adjusted for the US market.

cerich · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:12 pm

Uffe wrote:

LibertyCRD wrote:

Toyota hardly sells trucks is true. Their best seller is the smaller Tacoma, and it only sold less than a quarter-million units last year. Even the lowest selling domestic..Dodge...is selling more gas guzzling Rams than that.

The reason people are holding onto their Fords and GMs and Dodges is because the Toyota trucks are guzzling gas too. Tacomas with the V6 are mid-teens for mileage, and the new Tundra is a 12-13 mpg truck on it's best day. Plus, Toyota trucks are junk and that is finally starting to come to the surface after years of great PR convincing Americans that Toyota made gold. All the recalls and defects with their products (cracked beds, broken driveshafts, broken camshafts, cracking windshields, on and on..) are finally catching up with them. Why buy foreign junk that drinks the same amount of gas when you can buy a Dodge or Ford for less money that works harder and is cheaper to buy parts for??

You guys must get the bad toyotas over there then. It's very popular here in europe to own a toyota, a brand which is equal to unsurpassed reliability over the last 5 years.

as I understand it the diesel Toyota pickups are the popular models with the great reliability.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:12 pm

Reflex wrote:

35-40mpg -> emissions, -5mpg -> safety, -5mpg = 25-30mpg

Not bad, but also not unexpected. After all they are putting in a 2.2L engine, significantly smaller than the one in our CRD.

Thats my prediction of thier real world mileage when everything gets inevitably added and adjusted for the US market.

The Senior VP of Product Development at Mahindra (Dr. Arun Jaura) was former head of vehicle engineering for Ford's Escape Hybrid platform.
With better diesel technology, I’d say it is possible for Mahindra to achieve their estimated mileage claims.

CRD 2.8L before F37
160 horsepower
295 pound feet of torque
Base curb weight: 4306 pounds
5 speed automatic
Length x width x height: 174.4 x 71.6 x 70.2 in
Wheelbase: 104.3 inches

Mahindra 2.2L + hybrid technology
150 horsepower
300 pound feet of torque
Base curb weight: 3850 pounds (CG estimate)
6 speed automatic
Length x width x height: 176.9 x 71.5 x 77.8 in
Wheelbase: 105.5 inches

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

LibertyCRD wrote:

Yeah they are pretty trashy. The 1980s models were rusted before they even got them off the ships. There is a new "under the table" recall on the 1990s Tacoma trucks because the frames are rusting...some to the point of having holes in the frames, and Toyota is literally buying back 10-15 year old trucks from customers to try and keep things under a positive light. And the 2000s models are plagued with more problems than I care to list. Toyota has never sold quality trucks here, and it's taken 30 years but people are finally starting to figure that out.

Gosh. I've owned a 1985 Toyota pick up and 2001 Tacoma. My brother has had a 1981, a 1984, a 1989, a 1995, and a 2005 (that one is a Tundra). And another half a dozen or so in the circle of friends that I know. Maybe they are all just super lucky, but none of them have reported frames rusting in half. Or even major problems beyond normal wear and tear. Or even any problems. My brother drives his to 150,000-200,000 miles then sells them off and buys another.

My 1985 Toyota pick up has nearly 200,000 miles on it, no frame rust, very little body rust, and has never had a major maintenance issue other than a leaky slave cylinder on the clutch, and is still a daily driver on the family farm. Still running the original 22RE engine and original 5 speed tranny. I had no idea it was totally rusted up before they took it off the boat.

Not to be too obnoxious about it, but one shouldn't believe everything one reads on the internet, particularly from Chevy or Dodge web sites. There is a reason Toyota came within 3,000 vehicles of passing GM as the largest automaker in the world last year (and why GM was selling trucks at cost to fleet buyers at the end of 2007 to try and maintain their rank).

Toyota's are overpriced, their dealer network sucks, and they do in fact suffer from pretty poor mpg to (though the Tacoma's I've had experience with are getting better mpg figures than cited above). And the new Tundra has had some major axle problems and has piss poor fuel economy. But I do get a chuckle out of seeing a Ford/GM/Dodge fan trying to paint them as rolling rust buckets ready to burst into flames at any moment.

Reflex · **Joined:** Mon Jan 29, 2007 8:48 pm **Posts:** 567

Threeweight - Aren't you in Oregon? I ask because people I know in the NW tend to love Toyotas, they last just fine in our climate, but people from the midwest tend to hate them, as they do rust out badly. Pretty much everyone I know in Chicago or the NE for instance won't touch them due to rust problems. But here at work I wouldn't be suprised if a quarter of the people owned them...

dieselenthusiast - Just to be clear, going from a combined mpg of 23(the Liberty) to a combined of around 35 means an increase in fuel efficiency of 51%. That seems quite steep to me, even with the smaller/newer engine and slightly lighter weight. Especially when its physical dimensions imply its even more of a brick than the Liberty is. Also, while it is definatly newer diesel tech, its also facing tougher emissions hurdles than the CRD did, and the CRD engine is not exactly ancient itself. I could see an extra 5mpg being reasonable, but I don't think we'll see 35-40mpg.

I could be wrong of course, but I think its reasonable to be highly skeptical of such claims.

Mahindra Truck/SUV diesel, 35 - 40+ mpg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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