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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:13 am 
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How come Reflex hasn't chimed in yet?


I heard he got banned. See this thread: http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=323827&highlight=reflex#323827

So here's my question nursecosmo, "to wash or not to wash?"

My feedstock is straight canola oil that has only been used once (I know because I am the operating partner for the two restaurants that supply me). I am just gathering the parts for a processor and everything I have read seems to assume that once reacted the BD will be washed in some fashion. I want to mess with this as little as possible and if I don't have to wash, I would rather not. I also want to be sure that what I am putting in my tank won't cause problems.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:15 am 
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dieselenthusiast wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
e85 is pretty cheap........anyway to burn off the gas or distill off the gas?


E85 is everywhere here. Would you buy E85 or straight ethanol for making biodiesel?
Side note: We have a Biodiesel plant not too far away in Guymon, OK. They are making bio from hog fat. Anyway, the biodiesel plant is making something like 60,000 gallons a day and LOVES (a big fuel station for truckers and passenger cars) has already bought up all the diesel. Every drop they can produce, it’s all bought up. Crazy huh? We will never will see Biodiesel sold here locally because it’s being all bought up by big stations.


Where exactly are you?

Here in fort collins we have 2 biodiesel filling stations, I can't wait to fillup once I get this diesel going.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:20 am 
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I have been researching small scale methanol production for the past six months and have found very little information in the public domain. :cry: according to one source 1 ton of wood chips will only produce 6 gallons of methanol. So far no one whom I have spoken with has actually made any so I might just have to do some experimenting for myself.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:23 am 
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nursecosmo wrote:
I have been researching small scale methanol production for the past six months and have found very little information in the public domain. :cry: according to one source 1 ton of wood chips will only produce 6 gallons of methanol. So far no one whom I have spoken with has actually made any so I might just have to do some experimenting for myself.



hick*experimenting with ethanol might be more fun*hick

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:27 am 
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Sir Sam wrote:
dieselenthusiast wrote:
Sir Sam wrote:
e85 is pretty cheap........anyway to burn off the gas or distill off the gas?


E85 is everywhere here. Would you buy E85 or straight ethanol for making biodiesel?
Side note: We have a Biodiesel plant not too far away in Guymon, OK. They are making bio from hog fat. Anyway, the biodiesel plant is making something like 60,000 gallons a day and LOVES (a big fuel station for truckers and passenger cars) has already bought up all the diesel. Every drop they can produce, it’s all bought up. Crazy huh? We will never will see Biodiesel sold here locally because it’s being all bought up by big stations.


Where exactly are you?

Here in fort collins we have 2 biodiesel filling stations, I can't wait to fillup once I get this diesel going.


Ulysses, KS

We currently have a biodiesel/ethanol plant being built here in Ulysses. Our ethanol comes from Milo, Corn, Trees, and Switch Grass. Our Biodiesel will come from soy.

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Last edited by dieselenthusiast on Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:30 am 
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It's easy to get the fuel dry in a dry climate like Colorado or Nevada. A water wash works well in getting everything out. I'm fortunate to have dry high quality WVO to make my fuel, and three bubble washes is all it takes. My fuel will clarify on the third wash.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:32 am 
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mrkake wrote:

So here's my question nursecosmo, "to wash or not to wash?"

My feedstock is straight canola oil that has only been used once (I know because I am the operating partner for the two restaurants that supply me). I am just gathering the parts for a processor and everything I have read seems to assume that once reacted the BD will be washed in some fashion. I want to mess with this as little as possible and if I don't have to wash, I would rather not. I also want to be sure that what I am putting in my tank won't cause problems.


Hi Kake. To answer your question. It depends on how long you want to wait for usable fuel. I like the sit and wait method but it does take a good while for the methanol to evaporate. If you want to add a bit more complexity to your setup this guy has a very good and quick way to do it http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 6201019332
Infopop has an entire section on waterless washing http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/ ... 5521001332 and is my favorite site for alternative fuel discussion.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:38 am 
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Sir Sam wrote:
nursecosmo wrote:
I have been researching small scale methanol production for the past six months and have found very little information in the public domain. :cry: according to one source 1 ton of wood chips will only produce 6 gallons of methanol. So far no one whom I have spoken with has actually made any so I might just have to do some experimenting for myself.



hick*experimenting with ethanol might be more fun*hick


So true :wink: . My reflux still only produces 5 gallons at a time and is not really suited to making enough fuel for driving. I sure would like to find out what catalysts the big producers use for methanol forming.

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 Post subject: Great Information
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:45 am 
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From all the threads that I have read on the LOST forum, this very well might be my all-time favorite. It must be soooooooooooooo rewarding to know that you’ve made your own homebrew. I think the world of biodiesel makes the attraction for diesel engines that much greater.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:07 pm 
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I spoke with Graydon (through e-mail) today to set-up a time and date to observe the BioPro demo in action. My location is closer to the Nebraska BioPro dealer, but Utah would be a cool road trip. The BioPro dealers sell all the chemicals you could possibly want,…………pretty much an endless supply. Anyway, I thought I’d pass the information on to those of you who are having a difficult time finding chemicals. There are BioPro dealers scattered throughout the United States including Alaska, so you may try to locate one in your area. Nonetheless, I’m excited to see the BioPro in action.
Image

Operating Costs:
Here's a breakdown of how you can calculate how much a BioPro 190 will cost to run. All figures were based on local prices in Utah near the end of August 2006.

Electricity
If the machine is used in an environment where daytime temperatures are in the low 80's F and night time temperatures are in the 60's F, the machine will draw approximately 25 KwH (Kilowatt Hours) during a batch. You'll need to look at your utility bill to see what your rate is, but a common figure is about $0.10/KwH. So, on average, you'll use $2.50 worth of electricity per batch.

Methanol
Methanol will vary based on where you live and also by the quantity you buy it in. In Utah, a 55 gallon drum of methanol runs about $155.00 for a 55 gallon drum, so about $2.82/gallon. The BioPro 190 will use 10 gallons of Methanol to make a 50 gallon batch. Based on $2.82/gallon, the BioPro 190 will use $28.20 worth of methanol per batch.

Catalyst
The BioPro 190 can run on either Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) or Potassium Hydroxide (KOH). KOH is usually a little more expensive than NaOH but is preferrable by some people. In Utah KOH goes for $60.00 for a 50 lb bag. NaOH goes for $41.34 for a 55 lb bag. So, 55 lbs is 25000 grams. 50 lbs is 22727 grams.

If KOH is used, you'll use 2350 grams. That comes out to roughly $5.11 per 50 gallon batch. If NaOH is used, you'll use 1520 grams. That comes out to roughhly $2.76 per 50 gallon batch.

Sulfuric Acid
The BioPro 190 will use 190 mL of high-grade (95-98% pure) sulfuric acid in the conversion process. Sulfuric Acid in Utah goes for about $33.18 for a 2.5 liter container of it. Based on those figures, the BioPro 190 will use $2.53 worth of Sulfuric Acid per batch.

Water
The BioPro 190 will use approximately 45 gallons of fresh water during its cycle. Water prices vary from place to place, but we estimate that it uses about $0.50 of water per 50 gallon batch.

The Totals
Using KOH as the catalyst
Electricity - $2.50
Methanol - $28.20
Water - $0.50
Sulfuric Acid - $2.53
KOH - $5.11
Total - $38.84 per 50 gallon batch
Per Gallon cost - $0.78/per gallon

Using NaOH as the catalyst
Electricity - $2.50
Methanol - $28.20
Water - $0.50
Sulfuric Acid - $2.53
NaOH - $2.76
Total - $36.49 per 50 gallon batch
Per Gallon cost - $0.73/per gallon

Return On Investment
To calculate Return On Investment do the following.
1- Take the current price of diesel fuel ($3.59/gallon in Utah)
2- Subtract the cost to make Biodiesel in a BioPro 190 per gallon ($0.73-$0.78/gallon)
3- Record the difference ($2.86 using NaOH / $2.81 using KOH)
4- Divide $7995 by the per gallon savings
- NaOH - $7995 / $2.86 = 2795.45 or approx. 2800 gallons
- NaOH - $7995 / $2.81 = 2845.20 or approx. 2850 gallons
5- Identify how long it'd take you to go through that many gallons of fuel
You'll now have the total time it will take to get a return on investment using a BioPro 190

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:48 pm 
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I did the math and it would take me 9.41 years for a payback, plus the the time to get the WVO; for driving back and forth to work. That's going on the assumption that the raw materials don't increase in price and diesel doesn't increase. :evil:

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 Post subject: Look into solar heating to keep it warm
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:05 pm 
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In your part of the country, you can snag 500 to 1500 watts per square meter and use solar hot water for your process. One item that scares me is the cost of electricity to keep your batch warm just to brew it. If you have the roof space some glass, some boxes, copper pipe and black paint may be a good investment.

Another thing to look into, CO-OP your investment with some others in the area, nothing wrong with making the brewer do some work.

Steve

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:40 pm 
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hatchetman wrote:
I did the math and it would take me 9.41 years for a payback, plus the the time to get the WVO; for driving back and forth to work. That's going on the assumption that the raw materials don't increase in price and diesel doesn't increase. :evil:
On the other hand, if you are cheap like me, you can build your own processor for less than $500. If you are saving $3.00 a gallon running B100, this will pay itself off in about 4-6 months.

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 Post subject: Methanol source for make your own
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:59 pm 
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Interesting thread: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr12.pdf

Read the first part and you will see why methanol has gone up.


Steve

P.S. I like the reactor that uses garbage best.

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 Post subject: Re: Methanol source for make your own
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:47 pm 
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warp2diesel wrote:
Interesting thread: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr12.pdf

Read the first part and you will see why methanol has gone up.


Steve

P.S. I like the reactor that uses garbage best.


Thank you. That is exactly what I have been looking for forever. Where did you find it?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:05 pm 
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Hey dieselenthusiast, the Biopro and other reactors like it are real scams. I paid only $800 for my first reactor and even that was way too much. here is a link to one of many on ebay which will work just as well if not better than the Biopro but for a fraction of the cost, or for <$200 you can make your own http://cgi.ebay.com/ELITE-BIODIESEL-PRO ... 18Q2el1247

Good luck finding methanol now for 2.82 a gallon, that is the 2006 price.

Say can somebody tell me how to save and paste a link using firefox, so that it is not a mile long?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:36 pm 
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nursecosmo wrote:
Say can somebody tell me how to save and paste a link using firefox, so that it is not a mile long?



There is a service out there called tinyurl which forwards it. IMO though its much better to paste the actual URL, I could disguise a link to something malicious if not VERY disturbing and you would click it thinking its something benign. If you past the actual url I can see where I will be going.

To that end I don't click on urls where the actual destination is disguised. Fool me once...........

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:12 am 
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So is natural gas the main source used today for the production of methanol?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:15 am 
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nursecosmo wrote:
Hey dieselenthusiast, the Biopro and other reactors like it are real scams. I paid only $800 for my first reactor and even that was way too much.


Are you serious? :shock:

Is this really as good of a processor than the BioPro? Will this kit pass the ASTM standard?
Image

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 Post subject: Mdethanol production study link
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:12 am 
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I just weeded it out from a Google search, most of what you find is junk like Target and eBay wanting to sell you a methanol reactor. I guess that Target and eBay hackers confused methanol with meth and did not set up the Google Auto Grab, try tomorrow and they will have it set up.

Steve

PS: I still like the garbage methanol reactor.

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