Lineage Motorsport Ground Kit.......

FL RENNY · **Joined:** Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:30 pm **Posts:** 458

So I had the owner of Lineage Motorsport install my headunit today and he showed me this grounding kit that he designed. He patented the kit, and now Greddy and AEM are in production of similar models, he really messed up by not doing an international patent. He explained to me how the newer cars have gotten away from the "drive by wire" type systems, and that the new all electronic systems are not grounded enough....and create lag in the system and lose electric current bc they only ground to 3 spots on the car. He said that by grounding your ride in 5 additional spots (the chassy, transmission, alternator, and 2 other spots) that your car "speaks better" to itself and it improves throttle response, gas mileage. He also added that additional performance upgrades (intake, and exhaust for example) will actually work better, creating more than expected HP, and torque gains. He showed me a honda civic SI dyno with intake, headers and exhaust without the Ground Kit system installed, then showed me the same SI dyno with the ground kit system installed, and the Civic SI netted 27 additional horsepower just from adding the ground kit to his other performance upgrades.

Does anyone know ANYTHING about these grounding systems, and what do you think?!?!

Thanks, JP

PS - he sells the kit for $100, but I found it here on ebay for $30......take a look

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Linea...spagenameZWD1V

FL RENNY · **Joined:** Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:30 pm **Posts:** 458

Ok well it came in today, so I'll be putting it on tonight....................I'll let you know what I think.

MavrikXJ · **Posted:** Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:19 pm

Good luck, looks promising.
Tom

VTNomad · **Posted:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:18 am

If something sounds to good to be true, it probably is. So what he is claiming is that the additional ground point allow weak/intermittent electric signals to go from point A to point B more effectively?

JL Rockies · **Posted:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:33 am

Snake oil is right. Upgrading ground wires make sens for extreme current conditions (like large stereos) but it's not going to offer performance advantages.
In the stereo world, consumers will buy 0 AWG wire for power but leave the 8 AWG wire that grounds the battery to the chassis. The alternator grounds to the engine block which grounds to the chassis through motor mounts and a tiny ground strap.
Upgrading the factory grounds is great to limit voltage sag. Thats a good thing for stereos, but I am not sure what else.
You could upgrade these grounding points with a trip to a stereo shop. All you need is two or three lengths of wire and some ring terminals.

JPaul · **Posted:** Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:53 pm

I remember talking about this stuff a lot when I was tuning my dodge Neon (I like to be different). I'm not an elctrical engineer, but I do have a good understanding of electronics. It is very true that poor grounds can cause issues with electronics. However, I don't think that it is an issue if there are only three ground spots. Most of the sensors on the cars are not simple one wire sensors that need a positive ground. I'm pretty sure a lot of them are directly grounded through their wiring.

The TPS is not grounded to anything for example, nor are the coil packs or injectors, so there goes the theory of poor throttle response. Depending on where the coolant sensor is that probably isn't grounded through the engone block either.

The general consensus on these things is that if the car's ground system is of very poor design or has degraded badly then you would see an improvement with it. But the Libirty's are no older than 6 years, which is pretty dang young really. It's not like it's a 1980 Acura that someone is trying to tune, since that's what those grounding systems were designed for. I'm willing to bet the guy you talked to does not have any kind of degree en electrical engineering and is more of a tinkering tuner than anything else.

For something as new and advanced as the Jeep Liberty, do you really think the engineers are going to stick with a crappy grounding system? I think not. I've been impressed with some of the simple refinements I have seen over the years from auto engineers. I'm guessing the civic SI he showed you the dyno for was an older model SI hatchback? They were not well designed cars but are really good sleds for modification, they are light and tiny and lowslung. The fact that they are pretty cheap helps too.

I should also point out that any dyno sheet should be taken with a grain of salt, especially if it's from the guy trying to sell you the part. It's pretty easy to tweak a dyno's controls to get it to show you what you want to see. A 27 hp increase is pretty far fetched if you ask me. Especially on somehting that has as small an engine as a SI does. changing out the headers and exhaust would probably only net you about 20 hp at best, and that is spinning the engine towards 9,000 rpm (the only reason they make as much pwer as they do). The grounding system would have to have completely sucked on that SI to see that much of an increase.

One last thing aobut the grounding systems on our cars. They are designed very specifically to meet the needs of our particular design. You cannot simply throw a bunch of wires to ground and expect it to work better, or even to work correctly at all. You can get an effect of a ground plane loop (i think that's what it is called, it's been a long time). You end up getting signal crosstalk and feedback introduced into the system because all of the signals in the ground plane end up traveling around the ground in a loop. It can cause anything from intermittent problems all the way up to causing a complete crash of the signalling system. It is a possibility so unless you really know what you are doing, I would not mess with it.

If you are worried about the grounding system in the Liberty I suggest you check the schematics first. Odds are most, if not all, sensors have dedicated grounds, if they even need a ground. As far as I am aware, the only thing that really needs grounding in the Liberty still are the sparkplugs, the starter, and the lighting/charging system. The block is already grounded quite nicely.

And if I'm not mistaken, drive by wire stems from the term "fly by wire" which is the opposite of what the mechanic implied. Fly by wire is where all the controls are operated through electrical interfaces versus the physical cables and levers and hydraulic systems they used to use in aircraft. Another ding against this guy, in my opinion.

I'm not trying to be mean or anything, and sorry fro the long reply. It's just that this topic has been beaten to death in some of the past forums I have been in. I completely forgot this type of product even existed.

FL RENNY · **Joined:** Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:30 pm **Posts:** 458

OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I installed the kit, and now my alarm wont work!!! I press the key fob, and it tells me that there is no signal. What do I do?!?!!?!?!?

KY Liberty · **Joined:** Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:46 pm **Posts:** 1195

FL RENNY wrote:

OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I installed the kit, and now my alarm wont work!!! I press the key fob, and it tells me that there is no signal. What do I do?!?!!?!?!?

Disconnect the kit and hope it didn't fry anything. Is this the same guy that sold you the Jet chip you were talking about?

FL RENNY · **Joined:** Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:30 pm **Posts:** 458

OK nevermind!!! I noticed when I was taking off the negative terminal the horn would blow off (scared the &^%$^ out of me by the way). I was here laying in bed and sat straight up and said I DIDN'T DISCONNECT THE POSITIVE TERMINAL!!! So I walked out, disconnected the positive terminal............nothiing.........I took it off again and when I put it back on the horn blew off......I pushed the button to arm the Jeep...and VOILA it worked!! So never the less, I had the crap scared out of me (both thinking that I fried my alarm, and the horn blowing off) and I learned another something about my vehicle. Now this darn grounding kit better work!!!

Jeep4me99 · **Posted:** Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:45 pm

so besides the alarm horny deal. did you drive around and test it out?

KY Liberty · **Joined:** Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:46 pm **Posts:** 1195

Glad to hear you got it working. What were your dyno numbers before adding it, and what kind of dyno did you use? I'm interested to see your before and after numbers. I'd also like to see the before and after numbers for the Jet chip to see if it works better with the NGC computer than it did for mine with the JTEC.

FL RENNY · **Joined:** Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:30 pm **Posts:** 458

Well I drove it this weekend to my girlfriends parents house. With the cold air intake, and the ground kit, I can deffinatly tell a difference in acceleration as soon as it hits 3500 RPMS, I can also feel a little more power starting from 0 mph...it just feels like its a little easier to get the wheels moving. My gas mileage has gone up as well. With my 22s I was averaging about 14-15 mpg in the city, and this trip I got 18!! NO LIE!! I also just got a Borla Pro XS exhaust installed this morning, but that does not factor in for my mileage this weekend. I am excited to see how much the exhaust helps out the MPGs as well. I'm sorry but I haven't Dyno'd it, and probably wont. The only Dyno is about 1.5 hrs away and just don't think I'm gonna go get it done. I will most likely be ordering the Jet Chip in a couple of weeks, as well as an Airaid throttle body spacer, and I'll be sure to keep you informed. I took pics of the install for the Ground Kit, and the new Exhaust and I will post them sometime this week.

JPaul · **Posted:** Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:10 pm

How did you calculate your mpg? Have you done multiple trips to determine what the average is?

I'm suspicious of the results because if these things really did work, especially on newer vehicles, the engineers at the auto companies would have done a better job. they try everything to increase performance and gas miliage, especially nowadays with the regulations in place. I also find it hard to believe that every car manufacturer out there designes a poor grounding system.

By the way, have you ever tried diconnecting the battery long enough to let the computer reset and then go out driving afterward to check performance? That could be another reason for your results.

I'm not bashing mind you, it's just that I have seen a lot of people try all kinds of "performance mods" and either they come back with "it felt faster" statements or they did not notice anything. I have not seen anyone but the manufacturers of these products come back with dyno proven results. If the manufacturer is the only one with dyno results that prove it works, there is a reason. Either no one has tried the product out and tested it fully themselves yet, or no one has been able to produce the same kind of results.

Generally, the only time I have seen people come back with real results on the grounding systems are the people who have a lot of power hungry accessories that dimmed the lights all the time or had an old, corroded grounding system.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:41 pm

You know that you need to use premuim gas with that Jet chip to see any effect(stage II),right?The stage I chip will actually lessen HP and torque after the PCM overrides it. There goes any cost saving's that you might think you are getting,or going to get.

I have the Jet stage II chip,and yes I can tell the difference with it and without it,and yes I use premuim gas,it pings/knocks with anything less then 89 octane,loves 93 octane.

Oh and grounding kits are pointless in newer vehicles,they can actually cause problems then fix any.Almost every sensor that effects any kind of performance/mileage has it's own deticated ground anyway,and having bigger wire for grounds can make it easier to fry your PCM/TCM/BCM/SRS controller if you ever jump start a vehicle(or get jump started yourself) or have anything welded on your vehicle if the battery is not fully disconnected.Basically making your electronic controllers more sensitive which can cause more harm then good.

KY Liberty · **Joined:** Sat Jul 09, 2005 1:46 pm **Posts:** 1195

I would highly recommend getting a B&G flash instead of the Jet chip, and a Fastman throttle body instead of the spacer. This is after spending quite a few hours on the dyno with the Liberty.

Lineage Motorsport Ground Kit.......

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