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 Post subject: Oil surpasses $138 a barrel
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 2:51 pm 
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This is probably an annoying post for most of you. But I've been listening to oil experts and oil analysts for the past few years who (off the record) have predicted (based on their knowledge and expertise) that the cost of oil was going to skyrocket. I thought I'd start this thread to document and keep track of the cost of fuel as it continues to climb. There are multiple reports that say that oil may even reach $200 a barrel by 2010/2011. I think this is a pretty serious issue. I also think this is a very real issue. Most believe that the price of fuel will level out for a period of time, but we have to wonder at what price will it level out at?

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Last edited by dieselenthusiast on Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:29 pm 
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You're right, and if you look at Canadian reports on oil price increase you'll get a neutral view, albeith scarier ($200 by next year).
US dollar is linked to oil price, Us dollar is loosing value every day, new oil is expensive to extract and countries that have oil don't have the billion$ to extract it.
All those factors added together mean a $4.50/US gallon for normal gas by end of summer, and $5+ next year. And because we have no new refineries and the current old ones are biased for gas(50% of production is gas, 25% or less for diesel), the diesel ends up costing more every year because demand surpass production.

Some countries are pushing to move the barrel to another currency, which of course is the worst thing that could happen to the US dollar and for our economy as a whole. I personally just hope the next president will start managing the country like a family budget (don't borrow anymore, clean your house before doing the neighboors, pay off your debt...). BTW if you really want to cry (i did...) take a look a the national debt clock: http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

I'm changing my driving habits, taking the bus to work (yeurk!!!) and thinking about a small 30+mpg car for everyday use

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 3:47 pm 
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Here's an alternative view on how we can fix the problem. It does, however, require someone with the stones to make it happen...

From Jack Wheeler's (ex R.Regan advisor) website "To The Point News" (http://www.tothepointnews.com/index.php):

HOW TO BE FREE OF FOREIGN OIL
Written by Dr. Jack Wheeler
Friday, 09 May 2008

Let's start with the bad news. Oil will be at $200 a barrel by election day, November 4th. It's baked in the inflation cake.

With inflation running at between 4 to 12% now depending how you calculate it, and the Fed funds rate at 2%, the Fed is paying its Wall Street buddies with access to its discount window to take all the money it's printing. The Fed will keep printing and giving away more money until the election to forestall the recession that's sure to hit once the printing stops.

It's also baked into the Democrats' cake. They want $200 oil because they think they are smart enough to get voters to blame Republicans for it, and that Republicans are so stupid they won't get voters to blame the Dems. Right on both counts.

As economist Robert Samuelson recently said in his column in the Washington Post - read by everyone on Capitol Hill - the single most obvious thing to do to lower oil prices is to start drilling. Drill ANWR, drill everywhere else in Alaska, drill offshore in Alaska and the Pacific, Atlantic, and entire Gulf coasts.

And this is exactly what the Democrats are hysterically opposed to. The entire purpose for their ridiculous demand the polar bear be declared an "endangered species" is that this would halt oil exploration in Alaska's Beaufort Sea. Their entire legislative plan for reducing gas prices is to attack and tax Big Oil.

In a speech last Friday (5/02), President Bush called for increased oil and gas production "in Alaska and our outer continental shelf." Nancy Pelosi actually had the Orwellian effrontery to respond:

"Drilling is the failed energy policy of yesterday that has brought us record gas prices today."

Producing more oil causes higher prices! How Orwellian doublethink can you get? She sneered at Bush's policy of increasing production and his promise to veto her party's attempt to demonize oil producers by calling it "drill and veto."

If the Republicans from John McCain on down are too stupid to take the Dems to the electoral cleaners with that, they deserve to lose.

If McCain & GOPco did have the brains, we could free of foreign oil, or well on our way, by the end of his first term. Unfortunately, they don't - especially McCain. He's so braindead he's opposed to drilling ANWR because it would be like drilling in the Grand Canyon.

But if by chance, his economic advisor, former Senator from Texas Phil Gramm, can persuade him to put national security over a howling Alaska wilderness, and get him to somehow grasp that the way to be free of foreign oil is through increased domestic production, then here's how it can be done.

First, though, a definition of "foreign." That really doesn't include Canada, which supplies 2.5 of the 11 million barrels of oil we import out of the 20 million a day we consume. And if we, or anyone, would just shoot Hugo Chavez dead, then Venezuela could dependably supply far more than the 1.1 mbd (million barrels a day) it does now.

We import a bit less than 3.5 mbd from Moslem countries (e.g, Saudi: 1.6) and Russia (0.45) combined. Throw in Venezuela and always-on-the-edge-of collapse Nigeria (1.0) and we're at 5.6 (figures from EIA). Realistically, then, if we increased our domestic production - and remember, the US is the 3rd largest oil producer in the world at 8.3 mbd) - by 5 mbd we would be virtually foreign oil free.

So - the beginning step to being foreign oil free is to realize it requires a comprehensive, full-court press to get the government out of the way. It is to realize that the hydrocarbons are in the ground on our territory, the technology exists to extract and produce them at reasonable cost, that the problem is not one of geology, nor technology, nor economics, it is political.

Which means the solution is political.

Which means removing all government-imposed restrictions making it illegal to explore and drill for oil and gas in Alaska and off our coasts.

Which means removing depreciation requirements for (ideally) any capital investment, but at the very least, for any energy-production related capital investment. 100% expensing.

Which means waiving environmental regulations, as did DHS for building the Mexican border fence, for energy production.

Which would cause, among many other things, a number of savvy businessmen and investors to call 011-27-11-441-3111 in Johannesburg, South Africa. That's the corporate headquarters of Sasol, the company that knows more about producing oil from coal than any other on earth - the technology now known as coal-to-liquids(CTL).

Producing liquid fuels such as gasoline, diesel, and jetfuel from coal is known technology. Nothing has to be invented. No Manhattan Project is required. Sasol has being doing it commercially since the 1950s. Right now, 30% of South Africa's gasoline and diesel are produced by coal.

To say America is the Saudi Arabia of coal is a gross understatement. The EIA estimates for total US coal reserves are 491 billion tons, of which 264 billion are recoverable with current technology. It takes one ton of coal to produce two barrels of oil - which means we have twice as much oil as Saudi Arabia - 528 billion barrels from coal vs. total Saudi oil reserves of 260.

At current oil prices, the value of those 528 billion barrels from US coal exceeds the value of all private property in America.

So - given ( a huge given) that a President McCain could get the political roadblocks out of the way, a smart group of investors could license the Sasol blueprints for its most recent CTL plants, and build a factory to mass produce the plants - 100 of them each producing 50,000 barrels a day at a cost of under $40 a barrel.

Placed in coal fields across the US, with pipelines and power lines put up during emplacement, within five years or so, they would be producing the five million barrels per day needed to be foreign oil free.

They would also be a net producer of electricity, with the waste heat running steam turbines for co-generation of net electric output.

What wouldn't be produced is sulfur air pollution. Each plant would take limestone (calcium carbonate, far more plentiful and cheap than coal), heat it up to make it into calcium oxide, and run the sulfur-laden flue gasses through it. This converts the sulfur dioxide in the coal flue gasses to calcium sulfate. This is very useful - as a coagulant for foods such as tofu, or with water as plaster of Paris for drywall. No more sulfur problems.

Just as useful, a byproduct of heating limestone into calcium oxide is pure carbon dioxide, CO2 - pure enough to be pipelined to any oilfield to stimulate production via injection.

With no sulfur air pollution, no Clean Air Act waiver is necessary - although CO2 waivers probably would be needed to ward off the environuts.

This is just an example of how easy getting free of foreign oil - and getting back to gas under $2 a gallon - would be. Easy, if not for the stupidity of Republicans and the green fascism of Democrats.

So it's a pipedream - but at least we can understand why it's a pipedream. Then again, we can always hope Phil Gramm can loosen up McCain's calcified brain cells.

-end article

FYI - Mark

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 4:34 pm 
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CTL or Fischer-Trohp or Coal Liquifaction (which ever you want to call it)...

...is already getting started here in the US. Rentech, in partnership with BP
(i think) is building a facility in Wyoming. Supposed to be ready by 2011 I
think.

There is also GTL fuel (gas-to-liquid) which is Shell's latest thing. I think a
similar type of fuel is also available under the name SynDiesel.


I support an invasion of Venesuela 100%.
In fact, I will personally secure 10 acres of beachfront land. :)

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 5:01 pm 
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 Post subject: The dollar is in it's death throes
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:08 pm 
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Read the headline of the original post. The RESULT is higher gas prices... the problem is the weakening dollar. As a country, we are living way beyond our means. We have been distracted from the important issues that will affect not only us but our children and grandchildren to come. What you will see in the next few months is a severe downturn in our economy due to the fact that Ben Bernanke, the fed chair, has been flooding the system with cheap money to stimulate our economy. The problem now lies with the banks that are getting the cheap handouts but they are not loaning to each other, to corporations, or to private lenders. They are holding onto this money because they know something big is coming down the dark alley. The banks have been using this money to try to recoup some of their losses in the energy and commodity sectors, hence the rising cost of oil and food. There are other factors involved in the food sector but when you have Goldman Sachs saying that oil will hit $200, when they are the ones waiting for people to start buying oil futures so they can sell theirs on the way up to $200... We are in for some major changes...

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PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 7:43 pm 
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Your right...its a pipe dream...mainly because it would take a massive investment to get all this done. Since our economy has become record profit driven, investment is something industry is unwilling to do in any appreciable amount, unless the return on investment is all but immediate.
Then, there is the suggestion that we would again have cheap fuel...so we could do what...continue on like we have been?? This is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place...our own arrogance!! Big gas hog SUV's, Big houses we don't need so we can show off our status, living 40 miles or more away from our jobs, who are we trying to kid??
I very clearly remember the 1970's when we went thru rising prices along with the oil embargo. I remember people selling their big cars and running to the Japaneese car dealerships to get something they could afford to drive... the mandates for fuel milage Jimmy Carter put on the US automakers and all the moaning they did. Of course, we didn't learn a darn thing from the gas lines of the 70's...as Regan cancelled the milage mandates because the automakers said they were to hard to meet, even though we had been putting people on the moon, so its continue on as usual!!!
We all know our politicians aren't worth a hoot, as all they want in life is to get re-elected, so basicially, we have no representation to make decisions to save us from ourselves. Most of us can't make the intelligent decision we need to make when it comes to energy in general, because WE would have to change...something we have to be made to do.
Sound irritating?? It is!!
So where should ending foreign oil dependance really start?

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 Post subject: High oil prices
PostPosted: Fri May 09, 2008 9:05 pm 
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msilbernagel: I agree, Radical Marxist Democrats want to make CO2 evil and repeat their mantra over and over so that they can cut off drilling make us all poor victims who need government hand outs.

As far as ANWR goes, according to Kay Bailey Hutchinson the area needed to drill would be the size of a medium sized airport about the size of Chicago Midway, leaving the rest of the land for what ever wild life can put it to use.

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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 12:32 am 
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What is most unfortunate is that all of this has taken us by surprise. I have been having this discussion since, gee 1970-something. Face it folks, we won't do jack squat until it really hurts - me included. The voracity of this discussion is inexorably linked to the price of fuel: I estimate that each penny more per gallon roughly= 1,000,000 more people having serious discussions about the issue in this country. And, if fuel prices somehow managed to fall for a year or so this will all be forgotten....and then when they rise again, this discussion will magically appear again as if it were new. Each time we will be provided with - or invent - a new set of plotting boogie men to wag our angry fingers at. Yes, this time I'm quite certain it's all a giant plot by the evil, lame, atheist communist Democrats to make us all dependent on foreign oil...uh, whoops, I mean dependent upon government handouts. I'm also quite sure my dear old elderly mother probably has something to do with it: She was recently harassed about driving her Prius. Apparently it is a "left wing car" and is responsible for rising gas prices. Hmmm. The bloated, red-faced gentleman who made the comment to her in the parking lot doesn't make much sense at first glance but I'm sure with a little kneading and baking we can make logic of his comments as well. We have also been provided with the evil oil barons, Wall Street traders, Muslims and, most recently, rapidly growing China. I am, as ever, grateful we never have to point the finger at ourselves. It helps me sleep at night knowing it is someone else's fault and not my own consumption habits and lack of foresight regarding petroleum usage.

But hey! Maybe, just maybe, we can can divert some of our justifiable anger and use it as fuel for our brains - in spite of the tree hugging democrats and other do-no-gooders. There is incredible knowledge and creativity in LostKjs and other technical forums. That is why I visit here. I have reason to believe this is an untapped resource for the advancement of crucial technologies that can solve at least some of our problems. Many people here are inventors, problem solvers and widget makers. I enjoy their presentation of coherent, thoughtful, intelligent, workable, technical solutions that address a variety of issues associated with our little Jeeps. I am witness to some really interesting stuff in here and have been fascinated by the legible chastising of Chrysler for not implementing what appear to be simple, elegant solutions to major design flaws. Perhaps if we can double up our efforts and focus on the technical solutions that fit within the context of this forum, we can come up with unique solutions for what may possibly be a dramatic change in our lives?

Perhaps we can find solutions that are not presently available? Do we really prefer waiting around hoping the car companies, oil companies and foreign/domestic governments to hand out solutions to us? Are we really that dependent upon them?
Really?

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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:01 am 
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The Decider has maxed out our Chinese credit card with his preemptive war. Could this conceivably be a factor in the dollar's plunge?
Roughly $500,000 per minute we spend on this fiasco despite Wolfowitz's assurance that the war would be financed by Iraq's oil.
http://www.afsc.org/cost/?gclid=CN_6s6i ... agoduhaBww
The military-industrial-congressional complex is bleeding us dry, as Eisenhower warned.





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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:08 am 
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And radical nutcase Republicans ran the country into the ground based on the theory that what ever was good for corporate profits was good for America, while hemmoraging US tax dollars into Iraq.

A drilling spree on the coastal shelf and in the wildlife refuges ain't gonna happen. The Republicans couldn't get it done even when they controlled both houses of Congress and the Presidency. You can blame it on radical tree huggers, but in that silly thing we call democracy, Americans actually get a say in what goes on in their backyard. I subscribe to a couple of traditional hunting and fishing publications, and today even true-red, gun toting, pronghorn shooting Republicans in Colorado, Wyoming, and Montana are starting to go after their Governors (R's and D's alike) for pushing plans to drill for natural gas on federal lands that provide habitat for antelope and elk. They've got the darn fool notion that 100 years from now no one is going to give a rats booty what we paid for fuel in 2008, but they will care what kind of landscape we left for them.

And as a practical matter, even if we did go nuts and drill anywhere and everywhere, none of that production will come online for at least a decade. And when it does, the weak US dollar will likely mean much of it gets exported overseas (as is already happening with diesel produced in the US being exported to Europe). Not going to reduce fuel costs, not with a couple billion Chinese and Indians buying cars.. The era of cheap oil is over.

The solution for a junkie who can no longer afford their heroin fix is to stop shooting dope. Solution for a country addicted to oil that can no longer afford it is to start investing in alternatives. To do otherwise is just trying to find a cheaper way to grow poppies.

Anyway, these discussions very seldom generate much other than people yelling at each other over who's politician is right. I'm a commie wacko, your a right wing nutball, blah blah blah.

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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:59 am 
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I do not think the energy problems/solutions are either a democratic issue or a republican issue, but rather an American issue.

And there lies the problem. The division in this country is quite extreme and to solve the energy problems we need to come together and develop a long-term solution.

And there lies another problem. Americans (of which I am one) are very impatient and have a hard time sticking with something for the long term.

Energy solutions will take many years and span many presidential terms. The party out of power can't help but demonize the currently in-power party. This leads to a very difficult time obtaining and sticking-to long term solutions.

It will be interesting to see what we come up with.

OK, I am sure I will get blasted for this. Fire away.

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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 2:17 pm 
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I'll blast you Mosfet! (With Threeweight's huntin' guns?)
The last thing we need is rational discussion of potential solutions.
The last thing we need is to come together and focus on implementing new technologies.
The last thing we need is to point the finger at ourselves and take responsibility for our problems.
The last thing we need is to invest heavily to come up with and implement long term, sustainable solutions.

Three trillion dollars.
What could that buy us? Perhaps attracting the best minds from around the word to a test facility in Nevada for research and development of alternative energy. Perhaps even a few hundred billion left over to help people convert over to a new energy economy.
The Manhatten Project employed 130,000 people and cost 20 billion in today's dollars. Perhaps three trillion could buy us 19 million 500 thousand people dedicated to solving this problem. Massive research centers in each state of the union each employing hundreds of thousands of people. Three trillion is a lot of money and it is obvious we can afford it since that is what we are flushing down the Iraqi toilet. Hate the war or love it, it is a clear demonstration of our wealth, power and capabilities. It is a clear demonstration of what we CAN afford if we think we really need to. Is taming this massive energy elephant in the room something we feel we really need to do?

We are at a unique point in history where we have the wealth, the educational institutions, the physical resources to become the world leader in energy production and development. We have everything we need to own this problem and solve it.

But, on the other hand, it is in fact easier for me to sit here and blame others. It is easier to continue my dependence. It is easier to sit on my arse and be angry. And so I will.

The last thing we need is a long term, sustainable solution supported by heavy investment, positive leadership and cooperation among our citizens.

Hmmm.... unfortunately, the last thing we need may be the last thing we have.

-------------------------

Hey Threewieght, how much did that Edge EZ module set you back? How much has it improved your mileage? I have been considering such an option myself but wanted to check with other innovated tinkerers such as those in this forum to see what their experiences were with such a device. Did you consider other brands?
My mom has run into some people who are modifying their Prius's to turn them into plug in hybrids - cool idea, and apparently some have been successful. I wonder if there are some innovative ways we could hyper-mile our little tractors?

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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 3:53 pm 
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There was a report today on Germany YV that for the first time in history, Diesel is higher that Super Plus (Premium).

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 Post subject: For $125 a barrel oil. Want to hyper MPG your rig.....
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 4:22 pm 
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... been there done that. At Michigan State University Ag Engineering Dept way back in the 70s we made a full size Chevy Biscayne get over 40MPG (EPA tested this rig) with a carburetor not EFI. I pulled the wrenches to make it happen, John B. Gerrish PHD was the Professor.
We stuck hose clamps on half of the valve lifters and put in short push-rods to keep them from falling out and prevent the valves from opening on half the cylinders. Yep it ran on 4 cylinders.
On our CRDs you could put in a DPDT switch that would shut off two of the injectors and switch the ECM to a dummy load.
Your fuel economy would go up and the performance would suck, you can not defy the Laws of Physics.

Commie pinkos can blame Republican Business people for the price of OIL. But even Business savvy Democrats like Warren Buffet did not forecast $125 a barrel oil in May, 2008, if Mr. Buffet had he would be flying around in a Boeing 777 instead of n older Boeing 737-300.
Who would have predicted that when China took over Hong Kong that they would have the sense to tap the Business Brain trust of Hong Kong and move toward Capitalism and help cause a real energy shortage unlike the bull crap one we had back in the 70s?
Who thought that the US Hotel owners from India would have their kids go to college and incorporate their family values into their business ethics and help their relatives back in India get it together and become a growing economic power house, needing energy?
As the price of oil goes up drilling will happen and oil will be found, when Bill Clinton left office oil was $10 a barrel, who in their right mind including the oil companies would drill for $10 a barrel. If the price of oil goes high enough, Harbor Freight and Northern Hydraulics will be selling home oil/natural gas drilling rigs right next to their biodiesel processors.

Threeweight: The best tripe recipe I have ever eaten is French, I just don't care for the Chinese Tripe recipe as much, too bland :P :P :P

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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 6:06 pm 
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KeighJeigh, the war is unfunded as far as our tax dollars are concerned. It is not in the natl. budget, which means its not tax dollar supported...so, the only thing left is to run up the natl debt to pay for it...and hope some other country will pick the debt up. They can either buy up securities, or buy up chunks of our infastructure.
Right now, our natl yearly budget is approx 3.3 trillion, with a natl debt of approx 44 trillion, although everyone seems to have a different estimate.
This debt is going up daily. Doesn't take long to see we are a Broke Nation, not a wealthy one! :(

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PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:24 pm 
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KeighJeigh wrote:
Hey Threewieght, how much did that Edge EZ module set you back? How much has it improved your mileage? I have been considering such an option myself but wanted to check with other innovated tinkerers such as those in this forum to see what their experiences were with such a device. Did you consider other brands?


I picked it up off Ebay for $225 bucks (about half the retail when I was looking). It is a three mode module (off, fuel economy, power) and I always leave it set to mpg (which is still supposed to boost HP and torque a bit above stock).

Hard to really say how much any one item I've tinkered with has done. I'd say maybe 1/2 to 1 mpg difference. We've switched over to summer blend here now, and my jeep is getting around 20-22 mpg city now. Haven't done many long highway jaunts yet, but on the short ones my EVIC has been reporting 28-31 mpg (it overestimates, on the other hand I'm running 30" tires so the odometer underestimates). Trying to figure out real mpg is a bit of a crapshoot.

I'd say buy one if you find it cheap, especially if you tow, but I wouldn't pay full retail for one.

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD Limited
Mopar engine, transmission, transfer case skids
245/70/16 Michelin Latitude X-Ice (winter)
235/75/16 Firestone Destination ATs (summer)
Thule roof rack, cargo box
V6 airbox mod
Flowmaster 50 2.5 inch muffler
Edge EZ module (set for fuel economy)
SEGR
TDIWagonGuy CCV filter
B99 (summer), B20 (winter)


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 Post subject: Re: For $125 a barrel oil. Want to hyper MPG your rig.....
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 7:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm
Posts: 679
warp2diesel wrote:
Threeweight: The best tripe recipe I have ever eaten is French, I just don't care for the Chinese Tripe recipe as much, too bland :P :P :P


Long ago I learned it wasn't my responsibility to change anyones politics. Trying to do so just ends up leading to high blood pressure and hurt feelings. The nice thing about this site is that it has generally been a place where one can find intelligent discussion of modifying and upgrading Liberty CRD's, with the occasional back and forth on alternative fuel and such, without having anyone try and ram their politics down your throat.

Suffice it to say that readers of this board have wildly varying political opinions, and we'd probably all be better off if we avoided trying to turn it into a soapbox.

By the way, if anyone is interested in reading more about hunters and oil and gas development, check out:

http://www.rmef.org/Conservation/HowWeC ... stHerd.htm

http://www.trcp.org/ch_energydevelopment.aspx

http://www.sportsmen4responsibleenergy.org/

_________________
2006 Liberty CRD Limited
Mopar engine, transmission, transfer case skids
245/70/16 Michelin Latitude X-Ice (winter)
235/75/16 Firestone Destination ATs (summer)
Thule roof rack, cargo box
V6 airbox mod
Flowmaster 50 2.5 inch muffler
Edge EZ module (set for fuel economy)
SEGR
TDIWagonGuy CCV filter
B99 (summer), B20 (winter)


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 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 8:41 pm 
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LOST Newbie

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:44 pm
Posts: 73
Location: Conroe, TX
Well said Threeweight...consider mine ended, and if I've offended anyone with my remarks, I apologize.

_________________
2005 CRD Sport
2003 Honda Valkyrie


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 Post subject: Re: For $125 a barrel oil. Want to hyper MPG your rig.....
PostPosted: Sat May 10, 2008 9:01 pm 
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LOST Addict
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:07 am
Posts: 6217
Location: Colorado Baby!
Threeweight wrote:
warp2diesel wrote:
Threeweight: The best tripe recipe I have ever eaten is French, I just don't care for the Chinese Tripe recipe as much, too bland :P :P :P


Long ago I learned it wasn't my responsibility to change anyones politics. Trying to do so just ends up leading to high blood pressure and hurt feelings. The nice thing about this site is that it has generally been a place where one can find intelligent discussion of modifying and upgrading Liberty CRD's, with the occasional back and forth on alternative fuel and such, without having anyone try and ram their politics down your throat.

Suffice it to say that readers of this board have wildly varying political opinions, and we'd probably all be better off if we avoided trying to turn it into a soapbox.

By the way, if anyone is interested in reading more about hunters and oil and gas development, check out:

http://www.rmef.org/Conservation/HowWeC ... stHerd.htm

http://www.trcp.org/ch_energydevelopment.aspx

http://www.sportsmen4responsibleenergy.org/


My Soapbox is better than your soapbox.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic


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