Kerosene vs. Diesel

chadhargis · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 11:55 am

Ok diesel gurus.

What's the difference between the two?

Diesel is running at $4.20/gal here but Kerosene is less than $4. It's spring here, and the weather is warm. No one is using their kerosene heaters, so the fuel is cheap.

Can I run it?

UFO · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 12:54 pm

Kerosene is used to make winter fuel, there is less energy in it, so you will see a significant mileage drop. Also, there is very little lubricity in it. The only way I'd use kerosene is mixed with biodiesel, as an anti-gel. Do not use it without a lubricity additive, and nothing is better than 2% biodiesel for that purpose.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 12:58 pm

Humm..

Well...if it will do damage, then it's not worth it. Just figured I'd throw it out there.

UFO · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 5:11 pm

It's interesting that the price of kerosene is now lower than diesel. I would use kerosene in the winter to keep my biodiesel from gelling -- it is more effective (I can use less) at keeping biodiesel liquid in the cold. I've been forced to use diesel the last three winters, where kerosene has been over $3 a gallon. Maybe this winter will be different and I can actually run B60-B80 all winter.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 5:56 pm

Tax collectors will nail you and the lack of lubricity will kill your CP3 pump as well.
Paint thinner (sub Turps) is basically deodorized kerosene, don't try it either.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 6:04 pm

Not worried about the tax man. Haven't seen him hanging out by the Kerosene pump lately.

So...feasibly, I could run it if I blended it or if I added lube to it like a shot of biodiesel or some Power Service?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 6:52 pm

... in kind of in the same viscosity family as #1 diesel, Jet Fuel (commercial type), and petroleum distillate paint thinner (sub turps).
In winter #1 and #2 are blended to reduce gelling so our diesel engines can keep running.
Jets use the Jet A (K1) so they don't gel up at 30,000 + ft where it is 90f colder than on the surface.

The #1 is thinner due to having shorter molecular carbon chains. These shorter chains have less energy per gallon when burned in the engine (or heater) as well as having less lubricity. This is one of the reasons besides higher rolling resistance of the tires and greater resistance in the drive train caused by thicker oil that we get lower fuel economy in the winter.

#2 = 138,690 BTU/ GAL
#1= 134,000 BTU/ GAL
K-1 & Jet A = 126,000 BTU/ GAL
Gasoline = 115,000 BTU/GAL
LPG = 91,500 BTU/ GAL

I hope this puts things in perspective, K 1 has only 90% of the energy of #2.

Steve

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 7:18 pm

It's basically ULSD............

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 7:36 pm

Going through the energy calculations you would need to get K1 for $4.00 to equal $4.45 ULSD. Add to this the cost of an additive to make up the lubricity.
The energy difference between #2 LSD and #2 ULSD is 1% loss for the #2 ULSD.

Steve

Cowpie1 · **Posted:** Tue May 13, 2008 10:07 pm

Good reply, Steve! Many confuse Kerosene with #1 diesel. NOT the same as you show. I will mix #1 with #2 for a winter fuel, but I won't even consider putting Kerosene in my tanks. $12K to rebuild a semi diesel is not my idea of a way to spend some of the profits.

I would not recommend anyone use kerosene as a mixture, and definately think you need psychiatric help if you want to run Kerosene as a primary fuel. Even if you "doctor" it with one of the better diesel addtives, you are taking a chance. And, at that point, you are not saving any money anyway. It is a very "dry" fuel and your injectors and pump will be ticked off at you. Even with it being doctored up, the lower BTU content will give you lousy fuel mileage.

Every time diesel has gone up in price, topics like using Kerosene come up as well. Not a wise decision just like using 2 cycle oil, ATF fluid, and other home concoctions. We could get by with this 20 years ago, but with the newer technology diesel engines, not a good move. Just check with the Truck Maintenance Council. They have good studies on these issues.

yakers · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 1:39 am

AFAIK ALL US Marine vehicles in Desert Storm (jets, helicopters, tanks & trucks) ran on JP5 which is pretty close to kerosene. They may have different injection systems and different life cycles and, I'm sure, different fuel additives but it worked, and for a lot of different vehicles and everything diesel. I don't know why it would not work in a Liberty, just need the right additive package.

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 2:20 am

However, if you needed to do it, the addition of 2-stroke motor oil would get you by with no damage - there's much more BTU in a quart of motor oil than in a gallon of Diesel fuel - but mixing sufficient portion of the quart would offset the price to above that of #2, as indicated - 2-stroke oil is formulated for combustion chamber service, and the new stuff is also low-sulphur, so cannot immediately harm the emissions systems

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 6:56 am

Down in Tennessee I never saw a lot of K1. K2 is mostly used for heaters because it just doesn't get cold enough to worry about flow concerns. K2 has a very similar BTU content to diesel. Add 1 oz per gallon of walmart two stroke oil and you will have a fuel with better lubricity than ULSD and it will save you $. There is nosuch thing as a "dry" fuel unless it refers to having no water in it which is good.

P.S. Tennessee kerosene is not dyed :wink:

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 7:20 am

Good link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency

K-2 does equal ULSD in BTU/ GAL just watch out for the tax collector. Using yellow jugs with the lube put in before you fill them to help mix it in and hauling it home to fill up your CRD would be a good idea. Watch your back!

I would guess that J5 is more dense and has more BTU/Gal than commercial Jet A equal to K1. Google is laced with too many fear monger gotcha grabbers on jet fuel to do a search to find the BTU content of J5.

Comment: Every time I book a flight on Amex Axiom as required by my employer, they lay a guilt trip on me about how many pounds of CO2 my flight emits for me.
Since every organic compound contains carbon and the carbon is emitted when it decomposes, should we have to place every fallen tree in the forest under water when it dies so that it does not emit carbon dioxide :?:

In my opinion, we who drive fuel efficient alternative fuel vehicles do much more for the environment than the STUPID BEAN COUNTERS who try to lay guilt trips on us who need to travel for our employment.

Steve

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 7:29 am

Good link, indeed................

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 7:55 am

GMCTD: Looking forward to those who will wine about $4.49 a gallon Diesel when Liquid hydrogen will cost $3 a gallon or more:?:

I can just see them lining up to buy H2 powered cars and trucks that will use $3 gallon H2.

CRD = 28 mpg

Liberty on H2 = 7 mpg

They will say, "OH but Diesel Fuel Costs more, I will stick with Hydrogen".

Some people can't handle the math

Steve

PS I will stand corrected on the price of liquid Hydrogen at the pump with all taxes applied if any one has bought any.

tulsa · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 9:58 am

The army uses an additive that allows the use of jet fuel in diesels, may be FPPF.
Lewis

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 10:33 am

Look how much Diesel fuel is wasted during the process downward to make a gallon of gasoline

europachris · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 2:03 pm

There are several aircraft piston engines either already certified and flying or under development that will use Jet A. One (Thielert) is developed directly from a Mercedes-Benz auto engine. I'm not sure what modifications are done (if any) to the fuel system to have it run on Jet A with no additives (something the FAA frowns upon).

But, sometime in the fairly near future, 100LL avgas will go away and we will be forced to run alternative unleaded fuels. Not a big deal for me as my little '46 Cessna 140 runs happily on 87 octane unleaded autogas (with the proper STC approval paperwork). But some of the high performance turbocharged engines need more octane than that and I think the highest octane unleaded avgas yet developed is around 96 octane.

Developing aircraft diesels that run on Jet A simplifies matters quite a bit, and besides, diesels are just better!

Chris

mark2m · **Posted:** Wed May 14, 2008 2:18 pm

Been running Jet A for over 10,000 miles with additive in it. No ill effects as of yet. No worries about fuel gelling when it's cold and from the EVIC I'm getting 28 mpg lately. Can't complain.

Kerosene vs. Diesel

Who is online