poor mans provent or rich mans EHM?

LocoCRD · **Posted:** Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:15 am

Hey C,

Put me down for one as well.

Loco

Bill.Barg · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:34 am

I asked Mr Saikou the following

"On the Hi Flo 951 OCC, is there a way to inspect the condition of the
sandwiched mesh and screen.
Is there any risk of the screen becoming clogged over time? How often
does the unit need to be replaced?"

From Mr. Saikou

"Hi!
It is not easy to inspect visually, but if you had a way to blow a puff of air through the inlet, you would know if it is flowing.
If you suspect severe blowby and clogging, the occ can be dunked in a warm solution of water-based degreaser (409, Simple Green, etc)
Then drain, and allow to dry in the sun.
If the occ was to receive this treatment about once a year, I think it would last indefinitely. The construction is solid.

Thanks, let me know if you have any other questions!
Mr. Saikou "

ChesterCRD · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:49 pm

ccattie,

I'll take one also. Please let me know what the process is.

Thanks,

Chester

ccattie · **Posted:** Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:34 pm

Ok guys for US based orders this is how it works.

Shoot him a paypal payment of $90 and in the comments field be sure to note it is for the "Jeep Group Buy". Please PM me for the paypal address. I am not sure if they want it to be public or not. So until I hear it is ok to publish, just ask me for it.

Orders sent internationally (outside the USA) will be the normal price of $95.00 + actual shipping - $15.00 group buy discount.

ccattie · **Posted:** Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:04 am

I believe I have sent the info to everyone who has asked.
-c

DDom · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:41 am

i would HIGHLY recommend a overpressure relief of some type be incorporated into any vent system installed on the CRD. some experiences should not be duplicated.

UFO · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:50 pm

DDom wrote:

i would HIGHLY recommend a overpressure relief of some type be incorporated into any vent system installed on the CRD. some experiences should not be duplicated.

I may have missed the explanation, but I've not seen the cause of a clog. Where does the "HIGH" recommendation come from? The FACTORY system has no pressure relief, why is it supposedly needed for a mod?

bugnout · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:09 pm

The factory system doesn't have any provisions to stop the oil from entering the intake, just lets it through which is a bad thing unless you like replacing turbo hoses and cleaning out your intercooler. To prevent the oil from being passed through, the Provent and other solutions put a mesh or other coalescing media to collect the oil and either redirect it or catch it. These systems all must be serviced regularly either replacing elements or draining oil.

Since your now trying to stop it, the chances are your going to succeed, and if you succeed in a big way your device is going to clog up, and effectively block the crank case vent. (a bad thing)

If a self cleaning coalescing material could be used, then maybe you wouldn't need a pressure relief valve. A pressure relief valve seems like an inexpensive safety device to add.

UFO · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 4:08 pm

bugnout wrote:

The factory system doesn't have any provisions to stop the oil from entering the intake, just lets it through which is a bad thing unless you like replacing turbo hoses and cleaning out your intercooler. To prevent the oil from being passed through, the Provent and other solutions put a mesh or other coalescing media to collect the oil and either redirect it or catch it. These systems all must be serviced regularly either replacing elements or draining oil.

Since your now trying to stop it, the chances are your going to succeed, and if you succeed in a big way your device is going to clog up, and effectively block the crank case vent. (a bad thing)

If a self cleaning coalescing material could be used, then maybe you wouldn't need a pressure relief valve. A pressure relief valve seems like an inexpensive safety device to add.

The factory unit was designed to stop liquid, it just does a poor job. My "rich mans EHM" is a stainless pot scrubber inside a large PVC T. All it does is condense the oil vapor and let it drip down. No one has presented anything, that I have seen, to show this oil vapor will plug anything. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but a pressure relief is not cheap, it's another $100. That's a lot for something a little periodic maintenance can do for free.

Bill.Barg · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:24 pm

Again, not claiming any special know-how , but just thinking it through,

It occured to me that the fine filter (very small pores) type systems, the Provent and Racor have a performance advantage but at a cost.

The advantage of a fine filter is that, we assume, a lot of the oil (95%?) will be removed from the blow by. But this fine filter can clog, so a pressure relief is absolutely required.

A coarse mesh has openings that are thousands of times larger than a filter.... really not clogable. However, we can assume that more oil makes it past the mesh (50% ?) into the turbo.

So we are left with a cost of effeciency decision.

I figure, if I go to the trouble to build and maintain this type of system, I want all of the oil out of the blow by that is safely possible.

bugnout · **Posted:** Thu Jul 17, 2008 5:29 pm

UFO wrote:

bugnout wrote:

The factory system doesn't have any provisions to stop the oil from entering the intake, just lets it through which is a bad thing unless you like replacing turbo hoses and cleaning out your intercooler. To prevent the oil from being passed through, the Provent and other solutions put a mesh or other coalescing media to collect the oil and either redirect it or catch it. These systems all must be serviced regularly either replacing elements or draining oil.

Since your now trying to stop it, the chances are your going to succeed, and if you succeed in a big way your device is going to clog up, and effectively block the crank case vent. (a bad thing)

If a self cleaning coalescing material could be used, then maybe you wouldn't need a pressure relief valve. A pressure relief valve seems like an inexpensive safety device to add.

The factory unit was designed to stop liquid, it just does a poor job. My "rich mans EHM" is a stainless pot scrubber inside a large PVC T. All it does is condense the oil vapor and let it drip down. No one has presented anything, that I have seen, to show this oil vapor will plug anything. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but a pressure relief is not cheap, it's another $100. That's a lot for something a little periodic maintenance can do for free.

Does the Stainless pot scrubber need to be serviced or changed? whats the interval?

Your right, if its your vehicle and you take care of it and your not worried that it might clog then not an issue. We have 4 choices:

leave it and clean/repair the turbo hoses and intercooler as they fail.
EHM: quick and easy but dirty solution
poor mans solution, Keep your eye on it, maintain it, (Trust but verify)
Provent or similiar, guaranteed fool proof solution, if you never maintained it, its not going to cause your vehicle any major harm.

For my CRD, EHM or poor man solution is good enough for me. I'm out of warranty already, but if it was my wifes daily driver, I'd opt for the fool proof solution.

DDom · **Posted:** Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:33 am

not meaning to be incoherent but without getting into details....more than just oil and soot is produced by an internal combustion engine. if temperatures drop below a certain temp, as they do in North America, you will see what happens from a lack of pressure relief device in a CCV system.

learn once... not over and over again.

UFO · **Posted:** Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:39 am

DDom wrote:

not meaning to be incoherent but without getting into details....more than just oil and soot is produced by an internal combustion engine. if temperatures drop below a certain temp, as they do in North America, you will see what happens from a lack of pressure relief device in a CCV system.

learn once... not over and over again.

Please don't keep it to yourself. All I hear is fear, lots of smoke and no fire. Every one of my vehicles has PCV, and not one of them has overpressure relief including my Mercedes diesel.

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:40 pm

Agreed, DDOM's cryptic repetition is not at all helpful to learning once - or twice - or thrice - or........well, you get my drift, eh - detailed explanation is helpful, such as frozen filter media...............

DDom · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:56 am

sorry for being cryptic

i am one to not blather on about experiences in a public forum since written words these days are like loose lips of yesteryear. dealers, manufactures and the like peruse boards such as these for reasons to deny claims. ask me how and what i know in a PM. So if you UFO and any other credible member wishes to know my experiences i will gladly express myself more clearly using more secure msging. i am immensely grateful to everyone who brings forth their knowledge here! i wish to do in kind, though i prefer a little more private discussion for some issues. sincerely

chrispitude · **Posted:** Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:08 am

Hi DDom,

I've sent you a PM asking for more information on your experiences.

Has anyone installed a Saikou 951 OCC yet? If so, how did you handle the mounting?

- Chris

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:37 pm

Wouldn't do much good for me to PM about this, as I'm a confirmed card-carrying blabber-mouth: I'd just go public with it and spill my guts, as usual...................

chrispitude · **Posted:** Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:41 pm

gmctd wrote:

Wouldn't do much good for me to PM about this, as I'm a confirmed card-carrying blabber-mouth: I'd just go public with it and spill my guts, as usual...................

Hi gmctd,

We all like to hear you talk.

So do you have any cautions against installing a Saikou filter without a pressure relief? DDom intimated that he had direct experience with some issue along these lines, but I still have yet to hear any specifics. I'm ready to place an order, but I'm finding it difficult to get first-hand information on what I should be thinking about.

- Chris

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:58 pm

It's as you surmised, Chris - H20 condensate freezes the filter element, blocking crankcase effluent - seals leak, worst case seals can be permanently damaged, with resultant pumping of sump oil out the crank seals - alternately is crankcase backfire - either way a popoff valve would alleviate the concern, usually ~1-2psi above ambient

27" H20 = 2" HG = 1psi

CCV vacuum regulator is set for ~ 6-10"H20 less than Baro to prevent drawing raw oil from valve cover

chrispitude · **Posted:** Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:34 pm

Thanks gmctd. So my question is, how likely is it for the entire surface of the internal filter to freeze up? The filter mesh is 3" in diameter, which is about 7 square inches of area. My thinking is that if the filter is ice cold (say 0F) and the engine is started, some initial water vapor may condense on the freezing cold mesh. The question in my mind is, can the mesh surface freeze up completely solid before the CCV gases are able to warm things up above 32F? If the mesh were to start to form ice, it would force the CCV gases through the remaining open mesh space, which I would think would accelerate the warmup of that portion of the mesh.

Here is what Mr. Saikou wrote to me via email:

Quote:

Ok, I read through some of the posts and understand the concern.
My questions is this, can this actually happen? Is there so much moisture flowing through that it can actually freeze and clog up almost a 3" diameter circle of mesh?
This is stainless mesh, and not wool. Mesh has larger strands than the wool.
Now, in the normal flow of things, if there is moisture or blow-by going through, it should drop to the bottom of the occ and just stay there.

In theory I can see this happening when the engine is cold. Everything is going to be frozen on the engine if it is cold enough to build up ice inside the OCC.
When the engine warms up, then everything will defrost, especially the occ since you will have warm/hot fumes going through it.

At that point I promised him I would follow up with an account of DDom's personal experiences he was warning us against, which I have not yet been able to obtain. That is where my email discussion with Mr. Saikou currently stands.

- Chris

poor mans provent or rich mans EHM?

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