VW Owners

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:23 pm

Zakkly! My family moans about the "tough ride" in my CRD, complaining that the truck tires make the ride harsh. Its a JEEP. Not a caddy. Duh. :roll:

Uffe · **Posted:** Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:15 am

MTB_TDI wrote:

I own both a TDI and a CRD. My TDI is great and have averaged 46 mpg over 120K+ miles. I have replaced a wheel bearing, door lock mechanism. The window regulators were made of plastic pre 2003. They replaced mine for free and put in the new metal ones about 4 years ago and they are still working great. My MAF was replaced once under warranty as well.

I can only hope my jeep is as reliable. I have already had to have my rear window fixed in the jeep within the first month of owning it. The jeep is great and works for what it was bought for. Each has it's own purpose. That is it. I will agree the VW is more refined, but the Jeep is supposed to be a jeep. That is part of its charm!

Well said. I still miss my KJ heaps.

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

kcfoxie wrote:

The new models are not approved for anything over B5, mostly due to the DPF in the emissions system.

Neither are our Jeep CRD's, or any other diesel passenger vehicle sold in the US (though Cummins warranties their engines for 20%). I've seen press releases where VW alternative blamed biodiesels risk of fouling the emissions systems and risk of damage to the fuel rail, but I think they are more concerned about the risk of warranty claims that they would rather not pay for.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 11:45 am

Threeweight wrote:

...more concerned about the risk of warranty claims that they would rather not pay for.

DING DING DING!!!!!!!! We have a winnnah!!!!

ALL of the diesel vehicle and engine manufacturers are saying the same thing. This is not a new idea either, but the only difference is that "biodiesel" is considered to be a new fuel, so it is getting a lot of press.

Ask ANY manufacturer if they will pay for a failure caused by a FUEL problem. The answer will be a resounding NOT A BLOODY CHANCE!

While I have been accused of seeing conspiracies in our midst... This is one that I think might just be true: The oil companies are anti-alternative. This has always been the case, and big shock, nothing has EVER come from any of their "alternative energy explorations". So it stands to reason that they would ALSO not be in favor of biodiesel in any form. Any kind of negative press or misinformation they can generate to create fear of the product... Justified or not, they will create that fear.

Google "Yellow journalism" and "William Randolph Hearst" for information on a similar fight from back in the day. The quick version: WRH owned newspapers. He also owned paper mills. This was good for him, he had a monopoly on supplying paper to not only his papers, but also others. Hemp and marijuana plants can ALSO be used to make a paper product, a LOT cheaper than from tree pulp. It also grows faster. WRH didn't like the idea that hemp could cut down on his paper profits, so he used his newspapers to generate completely unrelated and false stories about hemp and it's uses.

Sound familiar yet?

The end result: The public started to believe much of the horse pucky that was being printed, and called for a ban on hemp and hemp products. This dovetailed into the prohibition on alcohol, and they both were banned at the same time. The rest is history.

I see big oil trying to pull the same crap now, and the only way they will ever support biodiesel is by being shoved kicking and screaming into it. The engine manufacturers are irrelevant - No fuel-caused damage has ever been a warranty item by default. IF the individual dealer chooses to fix something for free, it is on them alone. It's called "good customer service" or "customer retention" and the dealers have a special fund for these case-by-case issues.

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

I love this forum for the fact that many of the members have their heads on straight and actually use their brain.

Oh wait, we have CRDs... duh, guess that comes with the neighborhood

bhysjulien · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:22 pm

If I were a vehicle manufacturer I wouldn't warranty vehicles run on homemade fuel either. Firearms manufacturers won't warranty firearms that shoot homemade reloads. If everyone making fuel held it to the ASTM standard I don't think they would have a problem. Let's say someone makes a bad batch of bio and harms something in his engine. Why should the manufacterer have to pay for his mistake?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:47 pm

Point.

Counterpoint:

What happens when Driver X takes his <Insert_Car_Here> to the local Tank-N-Tummy, and both car and driver get a bad batch of gas?

Will the car maker pay for the damage caused by the corporate fuel that obviously wasn't up to standards either? Of course not. It would be up to the owner to get repair money from the producer of the fuel. Good luck proving that the fuel damaged the car, to any level sufficient to actually GET any money from an oil company.

This is a simple concept, and does not change the obviousness of the truth: YOU (the owner) are the one putting fuel into your car. YOU are the one responsible for the quality of that fuel, no matter where it comes from. If that fuel breaks something, YOU are the one who is going to pay for it... UNLESS the CAR DEALER ALONE decides to be nice.

In most cases, engine problems are not quite so cut-and-dried about what caused the failure. I had an injection pump seal fail on my Jetta TDI. Was it caused by biodiesel that I produced myself? Not likely, I hadn't run any through the car in 60k miles by that point. But some of the wankers on the TDIclub said that it was my bio that caused the problem. Maybe it didn't help. Maybe the ULSD damaged the seal. Either way, the dealer wasn't going to pay for it, I was.

Fuel-related repairs are never going to be covered by default by the manufacturer. It is something that they have ZERO control over, so they will accept ZERO responsibility for it.

IF it can be proven that the fuel caused the failure. Thats the real trick though. That proof is hard to come by, and most dealers would rather do a "customer satisfaction" repair than deal with it. Unless the owner has opened their mouth and said "Oh, I've been running bunker oil through it for weeks" or something equally stupid. Don't ask, don't tell.

bhysjulien · **Posted:** Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:59 pm

I agree. The owner is responsible. That's why I don't understand why people seem to get worked up over the fact that biodiesel isn't warrantied.

kcfoxie · **Joined:** Thu Mar 06, 2008 1:27 am **Posts:** 113

I have a nice relation story to that.

Local VW dealer of Cary managed to get the BP that was just down the road (not even a half mile) to stop carrying B20. Why?

Well, I had a coworker who had a first-run PD TDI (late 03 Golf). The dealer filled it up at said BP which had signage advertising B20 Biodiesel. He thought this is great that the dealer is putting this fuel in the car, thus they have to warranty it.

Then the injection pump failed.

He took it back to the same dealer and they said that it was not a warranty items since he used B20. He quickly pointed out that he'd been using the SAME fuel pump they used to fill the car up on delivery (as it is customary for the customer to drive to the pump in their new car and the sales man swipes the dealer card and pumps till it clicks and then hangs up the nozzle -- yeah, they screw over EVERY diesel owner that way due to foam). Upon further investigation, and his calling a friend who worked at the local news station and does the hand picking for the "5 on your side" stories, the dealer caved in. They did manage to threaten to use the Exxon 2 miles away if the BP didn't go back to straight up diesel, to which they complied (hey, would you want a large volume car dealer to stop using your for their fuel? I wouldn't!).

Threeweight · **Joined:** Mon May 14, 2007 5:57 pm **Posts:** 679

bhysjulien wrote:

If I were a vehicle manufacturer I wouldn't warranty vehicles run on homemade fuel either. Firearms manufacturers won't warranty firearms that shoot homemade reloads. If everyone making fuel held it to the ASTM standard I don't think they would have a problem. Let's say someone makes a bad batch of bio and harms something in his engine. Why should the manufacterer have to pay for his mistake?

There are large privately-owned biodiesel producers now, who produce fuel to ASTM specs. Here in Oregon, Sequential is the big one. I can buy Sequential B20 or B99, ATSM certified, at a half dozen locations around Portland. Sequential has required these locations to show either new tanks and filter systems, or systems in very good working order.

Now, why should my Jeep be warrantied to rot gut ATSM dino-diesel from Joe Schmuck's rusting tank out behind his shop, but not ATSM Sequential B20 from Jubitz mega truck stop that sells 10,000 gallons of B5 and B20 diesel a day?

Shouldn't the warranty coverage be linked to ATSM certified fuel, not the biodiesel content of said fuel?

While I don't think biofuels in general, or biodiesel in particular, is a panacea, I do think we see an awful lot of slick "spin" from folks with an economic interest in maintaining the status quo that attacks all manner of ways to reduce oil dependence. Biodiesel? Your injectors will be ruined in the first 10 miles! Hydrogen fuel cells? You car will be a rolling fire bomb! Hybrids? Your battery pack will wear out in the first six months! Keeping your existing vehicle maintained properly (like tire inflation) and keeping the speed down? Thats stupid why worry about saving a measly couple bucks a week?

Drewd · **Joined:** Mon Feb 06, 2006 12:24 pm **Posts:** 902

bhysjulien wrote:

I'm not implying that all VW owners are this way so please don't flame me.

I'm tired of talking to VW owners while standing at the diesel pumps. So far, except for the ones on this forum, they all like to point out that the Liberty should get better fuel mileage and like to tell me how great their mileage is. Good for them, I'm glad they get great mileage. Does their vehicle weigh almost 5000 pounds? Can their vehicle tow 5000 pounds? Is their Jetta or Beetle a 4x4 with the aerodynamics of a brick? They don't have an answer for any of this. Just because the Liberty isn't as big as an Excursion doesn't mean it's a cute ute.

My wife has the same problem. She drives a CRD and I drove a TDI and we'd both fuel up at the same time.

bhysjulien · **Posted:** Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:16 pm

I agree. That was my point all along. If you have a claim that is fuel related it had better be to government spec or you are SOL. Not that you wouldn't be SOL anyway with the way dealerships/mfgs play the CYA game. I don't think the mfgs should have to honor a warranty claim with homemade fuel.

Threeweight wrote:

bhysjulien wrote:

If I were a vehicle manufacturer I wouldn't warranty vehicles run on homemade fuel either. Firearms manufacturers won't warranty firearms that shoot homemade reloads. If everyone making fuel held it to the ASTM standard I don't think they would have a problem. Let's say someone makes a bad batch of bio and harms something in his engine. Why should the manufacterer have to pay for his mistake?

There are large privately-owned biodiesel producers now, who produce fuel to ASTM specs. Here in Oregon, Sequential is the big one. I can buy Sequential B20 or B99, ATSM certified, at a half dozen locations around Portland. Sequential has required these locations to show either new tanks and filter systems, or systems in very good working order.

Now, why should my Jeep be warrantied to rot gut ATSM dino-diesel from Joe Schmuck's rusting tank out behind his shop, but not ATSM Sequential B20 from Jubitz mega truck stop that sells 10,000 gallons of B5 and B20 diesel a day?

Shouldn't the warranty coverage be linked to ATSM certified fuel, not the biodiesel content of said fuel?

While I don't think biofuels in general, or biodiesel in particular, is a panacea, I do think we see an awful lot of slick "spin" from folks with an economic interest in maintaining the status quo that attacks all manner of ways to reduce oil dependence. Biodiesel? Your injectors will be ruined in the first 10 miles! Hydrogen fuel cells? You car will be a rolling fire bomb! Hybrids? Your battery pack will wear out in the first six months! Keeping your existing vehicle maintained properly (like tire inflation) and keeping the speed down? Thats stupid why worry about saving a measly couple bucks a week?

Uffe · **Posted:** Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:03 am

Drewd wrote:

My wife has the same problem. She drives a CRD and I drove a TDI and we'd both fuel up at the same time.

If I got this right, you guys hooked up at the fuel pump - love at first sight??

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:58 pm

bhysjulien wrote:

I don't think the mfgs should have to honor a warranty claim with homemade fuel.

Don't worry, they agree with you. And so does anyone with a brain. The problem is, that the anti-biodiesel types will make it sound like the manufacturers _WILL_ warranty every other fuel-related failure, as long as the fuel doesn't contain any of that brain-rotting, ozone-depleting, farm-killing biofuel.

But that is a complete load of horse manure.

EVERYONE'S fuel warranty can be summed up with three simple questions:

Did the manufacturer (or their representative, the dealer) physically put the fuel into the tank?
Has the vehicle ALWAYS been filled up by the manufacturer (or the dealer)?
Is the fuel source under the control of the manufacturer?

If the answer to ANY of these questions is NO... Then the damage is on the customer. Either the customer misfueled the vehicle (which would never be covered anyway) or the damage would ONLY be covered if either another root cause can be blamed, or the dealer decides to be nice and use their "Customer retention" fund to cover the repair.

Fuel-caused problems are NEVER WARRANTY ITEMS. There IS NO FUEL WARRANTY. PERIOD. It doesn't matter if the fuel came direct from the hands of the Saudi Prince.

Similar angle: Are tires ever warrantied by the CAR maker? Nope. What about brake pads? Batteries? Spark plugs? Fuel filters? Do we see a pattern yet?

You don't get a warranty on a CONSUMABLE ITEM. EVER.

LanduytG · **Joined:** Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:59 am **Posts:** 188

I don't normally weigh in on these things but. I have owned a couple of VW TDI's and have a NB TDI now. Mileage is good but I use only to run around town and things of that sort. When I need to haul or tow something I use my Duramax. 7500# and it will get 20-21mpg if I drive under 65 mph. If I want to go 70-75 then its down to 19-19.5mpg. Not bad for something that can do big work. Towing 15K the least I have gotten is 11mpg. If I slow down I can do 14mpg. So now to address the CRD. I would love to have one but until they can get some better economy I will keep what I have. I think the average CRD gets around 25mpg but it really should do better for what it is. But if I find one in good shape and their not wanting and arm and a leg for it I will try one. Not all VW owners are bone heads, only those that don't know any better.

Greg

bhysjulien · **Posted:** Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:31 am

If I drive 65 I get 27 to 31 mpg depending on if I'm pushing a headwind and the type of terrain. If I go 75 I'm looking at 25 to 27 mpg. I had a strong tailwind once and hit 32 mpg at 75. If I keep it under 65 I'll get high 20's low 30's. In town I get 21 to 24 with the air on all of the time. How much better do you want from a 4500 pound 4x4? It would be interesting to put the 2.8 in a lighter more aerodynamic body just to see how that would affect the mileage.

Forgot to add that all mileage is hand calculated.

Uffe · **Posted:** Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:47 pm

bhysjulien wrote:

If I drive 65 I get 27 to 31 mpg depending on if I'm pushing a headwind and the type of terrain. If I go 75 I'm looking at 25 to 27 mpg. I had a strong tailwind once and hit 32 mpg at 75. If I keep it under 65 I'll get high 20's low 30's. In town I get 21 to 24 with the air on all of the time. How much better do you want from a 4500 pound 4x4? It would be interesting to put the 2.8 in a lighter more aerodynamic body just to see how that would affect the mileage.

Forgot to add that all mileage is hand calculated.

Personally my alltime MPG record was 27 in the CRD. That was at 50MPH in a straight line.

Some 05 CRDs simply have better fuel economy than the rest of the bunch, and I wonder why...

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:17 pm

Uffe wrote:

Personally my alltime MPG record was 27 in the CRD. That was at 50MPH in a straight line.

Some 05 CRDs simply have better fuel economy than the rest of the bunch, and I wonder why...

ME TOO

My alltime high was 25 once :cry:

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:31 pm

Uffe wrote:

bhysjulien wrote:

If I drive 65 I get 27 to 31 mpg depending on if I'm pushing a headwind and the type of terrain. If I go 75 I'm looking at 25 to 27 mpg. I had a strong tailwind once and hit 32 mpg at 75. If I keep it under 65 I'll get high 20's low 30's. In town I get 21 to 24 with the air on all of the time. How much better do you want from a 4500 pound 4x4? It would be interesting to put the 2.8 in a lighter more aerodynamic body just to see how that would affect the mileage.

Forgot to add that all mileage is hand calculated.

Personally my alltime MPG record was 27 in the CRD. That was at 50MPH in a straight line.

Some 05 CRDs simply have better fuel economy than the rest of the bunch, and I wonder why...

I would rather eat the warranty replacement on my Optima battery than get the latest flash that screws up the shifting. I get 26-28 winter and 28-30 summer with ORM, my SEGR kit is not installed yet.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:24 pm

But you have a 2006... Are you sure your KJ hasn't already been neutered? How are you getting those numbers?

Best for me was 31mpg at about 60-65mph driving in rolling hills. (according to the EVIC, which has been almost 100% accurate with my larger tires)

Whats interesting... According to my GPS, my speedo is now 6mph SLOW with these tires, so that means that I was logging 19-20mpg while towing 4000 lbs of 6x12x6' high enclosed box... At what I thought was 70mph, was actually 76!

Towing 4000 lbs at that speed, and still getting 20mpg... Thats pretty dang good for the little tractor!

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