Over Heating CRD?!

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:17 am

KeighJeigh wrote:

gmctd wrote:

How does that compare to the significant other's '06

She just got home....so I drove both of them up and down the drive with the AC running.
Unfortunately, I could not get mine to do it's thing.
I'm focusing on the head and outlet temps.
The wife's 06 was 210-220 range at the outlet.
My last run showed with mine showed in the same range....but I couldn't get the dang needle to budge this time! It stayed 1 tick to the left no matter what I did.
However, ambient air temps are down to 68 deg. now so....who knows...
Perhaps I need to take a late night drive up onto the logging roads and see what she does after 5,000 vertical feet of up.

I've never heard of a better excuse for a moonlight 4 wheeling expedition.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:13 am

nursecosmo wrote:

KeighJeigh wrote:

gmctd wrote:

How does that compare to the significant other's '06

She just got home....so I drove both of them up and down the drive with the AC running.
Unfortunately, I could not get mine to do it's thing.
I'm focusing on the head and outlet temps.
The wife's 06 was 210-220 range at the outlet.
My last run showed with mine showed in the same range....but I couldn't get the dang needle to budge this time! It stayed 1 tick to the left no matter what I did.
However, ambient air temps are down to 68 deg. now so....who knows...
Perhaps I need to take a late night drive up onto the logging roads and see what she does after 5,000 vertical feet of up.

I've never heard of a better excuse for a moonlight 4 wheeling expedition.

Unfortunately, (fortunately?) I have also been trying to get the wife's trail bike running again so we can ride this weekend - the first time since she had our son 3 years ago - and just finished overhauling the carburetor so spent most of the evening riding the illegal roads above my house to make sure it worked correctly. I do have Friday off though and it's supposed to be hot!! I'll go out and do what I can to peg the gauge and then take the reading and compare to flat road driving. From what I have seen so far, the thing is running too hot. And I'm not sure what anyone can actually do about it except get a bigger radiator.
I did notice this however: The electric fan did not come on when it showed that it was really hot. I WILL go on from time to time but not necessarily when it appears to need it most.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:15 am

Take this into consideration:

² Engine Temperature Message - Each time the cluster receives a message from the PCM indicating the
engine coolant temperature is within the normal operating range [up to about 124° C (255° F) for gasoline
engines, or about 110° C (230° F) for diesel engines], the gauge needle is moved to the actual relative temperature
position on the gauge scale.
² Engine Temperature High Message - Each time the cluster receives a message from the PCM indicating the
engine coolant temperature is high [above about 127° C (260° F) for gasoline engines, or 112° C (233° F) for
diesel engines], the gauge needle is moved into the center of the red warning zone on the gauge scale.
² Engine Temperature Critical Message - Each time the cluster receives a message from the PCM indicating
the engine coolant temperature is critical [above about 132° C (269° F) for gasoline engines, or 115° C (239°
F) for diesel engines], the gauge needle is moved to the high end of the red warning zone on the gauge scale.

For the gasser, the spread between normal and hot is 5 degrees F and 14f for critical. Our diesels it is 3 degrees between normal and hot and 9 degrees normal and critical. The span is tighter.

To test the following:
1) Temp sending unit measure the cylinder head next to the sending unit with engine warmed up and gauge reading normal and record. If the thermometer reads normal with the gauge at hot or critical, the sending unit, Body control Module or gauge is the problem.
2) Engine warmed up, measure the radiator top inlet and lower outlet and record the difference. If the two readings are very close when the gauge reads hot, the radiator is the problem.
3) Engine warmed up, measure the head temp near temp sensor and the engine outlet pipe where the upper radiator hose is attached and record. If the difference between cylinder head reading and the engine outlet pipe reading climbs when the gauge reads hot, the thermostat is not fully opening or there is a restriction in the cooling system.

Note: Before you tear apart the thermostat housing, drain the coolant and check the inside of both of the radiator hoses for obstructions such as a undesirable rubber flap in the hose or debris such as a plastic shipping plug used to keep debris out of the engine or radiator. I would put a 5/8" nut on a small rope and tie an old sock on the other end and pull it through the hose to check the hoses.

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Aug 13, 2008 9:02 am

That would be an easy fix: wire in a switch to manually control ac condenser fan - you want it, you switch it, if Front Module is unwilling

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:33 pm

Great suggestions Turbo, thank you!

I just checked it again after a 2 hr. commute (roadwork) and at the top of the driveway, the engine outlet on the head was 230 deg F and the head about the same. It is difficult to get a decent read on other parts of the car because of varying angles and the large amount of low-heat-conductive plastic. I could not find a good place to measure the outlet at the bottom to compare it to the top.
I need to take this thing up a logging road and roast the hell out of it - get it up into "critical" range - and then check it with the laser. Or, perhaps I should take it to the stealer, have it inspected so they can once again tell me nothing is wrong, and then just fry the little basturd and tow it back to the stealer all seized up and ready for a new motor!

- C

PS - Any idea why the HELL does this thing randomly goes into limp mode every month or so? It did it all the time when I first bought it but the TSBs seemed to take care of it. Now, it just seems random....and of course the stealers can't diagnose "random". Today, sitting in traffic I turned the engine off while waiting for a flagger to allow us to proceed - it was one of several 20 minute sit times. Finally, we got the go ahead, I started it up and as if on queue the CRD decided that with 2 miles of pisssed off cars behind me, it was a perfect time to go into limp mode. Per my usual incantations I put it into neutral and rebooted - only this time it stayed in limp mode. So I tried it again puttering along at 4 mph. Still no luck. And now honking and middle fingers in my mirror. Tried it again....finally it has power again.
This marriage is on the rocks. I'm here for counseling but not feeling very good about things at this point. If its not the overheating, its the stalling, or the EGR or god only knows whats next. My dad's $12K Hyundai with a 100K warranty and 36 MPG is looking better every day. :evil:

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:28 pm

Sure would be handy to have an EGT guage installed - EGT is the real life-pulse of a Diesel engine - f.e., mine idles at 245*F, and ECT is ~140-160*F - if EGT is 245* and ECT is 245*, there is some serious blockage of coolant flow, like in a stuck t-stat or collapsing radiator hose, or maybe the bypass coolant path is blocked, putting all the load on the t-stat - bypass cooling is very important to a Diesel engine so-equipped - or, maybe the viscous cabin heater is stuck\defective, adding extra thermal load to the system - that viscous silicone\ferrous syrup has been known to fail in the hookup mode, where it is at full friction with no magnetic influence - meaning, it cannot be turned off = full winter heat in the summer

Limp mode always logs event errors in archives which cannot be cleared without DRBIII\Starscan, depending on model year - battery-disconnect won't even clear them - yours could be simple as Inlet Fuel Temperature, on the fuel filter head - try unplugging the temp sensor connector, temporarily place a 1/2w 2000ohm resistor across the terminals to eliminate that source - NOTE!!!!: need to be careful, here, as engine overheating does result in fuel overheating, with resultant required limp mode over ~168*F

FYI:
'05 talks only with DRBIII
'06 talks only with Starscan

Not much difference, as they're both hybrid systems using the older busses for the EATX TCM with some CAN buss for the EDC16, and the '06 ABS is busier due to EMS traction control - DCxJ just opted to not add the Java-script to include the '05 CRD KJ VIN in Starscan - sweet, eh? Baustidges, one and all.................

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:00 am

Quote:

Sure would be handy to have an EGT guage installed - EGT is the real life-pulse of a Diesel engine

Damnright it would. Can I rent yours? Better yet, I may have enough frequent flier miles I can just buy you a ticket so you can pay a visit and show off just how great that device really is. It looks like NW Airlines has round trip tickets from Houston to Seatac for $705.12. It might be cheaper to buy you a ticket and have you work on my mule rather than taking it to the stealer. (I'm not completely kidding at this point)

- Chris

Oh, and I just noticed my horn stopped working properly this evening. It now makes more of a farting noise "Bvvvvt. Bzzzzt". No debris, no mud on it. It just stopped making a loud honking sound. Perhaps I should replace it with a clown bulb nose horn or bike bell - at least I know it would last.
And while taking the temperature of my wife's 06 to compare with mine, I noticed it is making some weird bearing-ish noises. Hmmm...so far all the problems have been associated with my 05.....I wonder what is in the gift bag for hers....?

The thing is, I have always taken excellent care of my vehicles.....

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:34 pm

Hot day out today. Pegged the gauge coming up the driveway. Laser thermometer read 255 deg on the exit from the head. The lower side of the head was 270 and the top of the head was 220.
However, I went back down the driveway, drove 3 miles and then returned. At the top of the driveway, it only went 1 tick over and measured 220 in the same places.

I think something is seriously wrong.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:47 pm

Your delta T is too much from the water outlet and the head that is close to the cooling jacket. A delta T of 5 f-10 f would be more in line. Since pulling the thermostat is a pain, I would hope for a bad hose of other large debris flapping in front of the radiator inlet that would be quick to pull out. Thermostats can be intermittent on failures by not fully opening. If you can go with out the CRD for a couple days.
I would yank the thermostat and put it into a pan of water on the stove and test it. If it behaves per the specifications in the service manual, it is not the problem. If you see wax leaking out of the wax element actuator that opens the flap, you have a junk thermostat that will not fully open and produce the symptoms you describe.

Smell your coolant in both of your CRDs, if yours has a sour or burned smell that your Wife's CRD does not have, replace it with the kind used in the CRD. Wet sleeved engines can have serious problems (Holes through the cylinder wales) with poor quality antifreeze. A PH test would put any concerns to rest if both smell the same.
I know that Cat, Navistar, Cummins and Detroit Diesel produce wet sleeved engines and should have suitable coolant if you don't want to do business with your local stealer. Other members with ORT experience may want to advise on the specific trade names of coolants that are suitable.

Since you have two CRDs investing in a thermostat may be a good move, just in case you find out you need it.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:59 am

warp2diesel wrote:

Your delta T is too much from the water outlet and the head that is close to the cooling jacket. A delta T of 5 f-10 f would be more in line. Since pulling the thermostat is a pain, I would hope for a bad hose of other large debris flapping in front of the radiator inlet that would be quick to pull out. Thermostats can be intermittent on failures by not fully opening. If you can go with out the CRD for a couple days.
I would yank the thermostat and put it into a pan of water on the stove and test it. If it behaves per the specifications in the service manual, it is not the problem. If you see wax leaking out of the wax element actuator that opens the flap, you have a junk thermostat that will not fully open and produce the symptoms you describe.

Smell your coolant in both of your CRDs, if yours has a sour or burned smell that your Wife's CRD does not have, replace it with the kind used in the CRD. Wet sleeved engines can have serious problems (Holes through the cylinder wales) with poor quality antifreeze. A PH test would put any concerns to rest if both smell the same.
I know that Cat, Navistar, Cummins and Detroit Diesel produce wet sleeved engines and should have suitable coolant if you don't want to do business with your local stealer. Other members with ORT experience may want to advise on the specific trade names of coolants that are suitable.

Since you have two CRDs investing in a thermostat may be a good move, just in case you find out you need it.

Thank you!

I checked the two CRDs side by side. The coolants look the same and smell the same. I squeezed the top radiator hose and was able to get them both to gurgle the same amount of water with the same amount of resistance into the overflow tank.

I did find one odd difference: The the section of the T-stat housing that connects to the hose on hers is rock solid. On mine, it rocks slightly. Since it doesn't leak I figured maybe it was just a press-fit wobble on a soft gasket....but it prompted me to take the T-stat out for a closer look.
So....
I thought I would be clever and take out the darn T-stat using a special sidewinder wrench I got years ago. The hope was to get the thing out without removing the airbox and inlet hose to the turbo etc.. etc.... I did manage to take off the two bolts on either side of it and the one on the bracket on the top but it still won't budge...... I hope I don't have to take the manifold off. : :roll:

Still, I have a gut feeling it isn't the T-stat. If I can get it off, I'll replace it anyway (I can only imagine how many hundreds $ it will cost) but from what I see looking into it with a flashlight I don't see any goop or debris.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:42 am

Putting the thermostat in a pan of water with a good thermometer is rock had evidence. Just verify that the thermometer reads 212f (do the altitude correction) when the water boils.

Good luck

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:40 am

The V-M t-stat is a self-contained unit, replete with sealed un-openable housing - t-stat is not easily scrutinized.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:42 am

So did a lot of older BMWs, never stopped me from looking down the hole.
Proctologists do it all the time and get paid for their service.

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 8:04 am

Yuch - hope the t-stat doesn't smell that bad..........................

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:06 pm

Are there any more than just the 2 bolts holding that T-stat housing on (plus the bracket bolt on the top)? I've managed to get them off with only a few quarts of blood from all the hose clamps but it is still hung up on something. If I wiggle it I can see a tiny bit of movement away from the gasket where it attaches to the head, so I don't think its glued to the gasket. But I don't want to wiggle it any harder or I likely break or bend something. On the other hand, I can't see or feel any other mounting bolts underneath it.

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:17 pm

Oh, and the T-stat is a special order item from the East Coast a week out and $146. For a F-ing T-stat!?!? I know parts are a royal rip off at the stealer but that is just completely beyond comprehension. I should have known.

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:13 pm

Has the three bolts to the engine block and one to the heat pump bracket

ChesterCRD · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:15 pm

Scary scary stuff. I hope it's the thermostat and not the water pump. The only other thing I can think of would be head gasket, but there are plenty of posts here already from those more knowledgeable than me. Certainly sounds like you've had your share of issues.

Chester

KeighJeigh · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:42 pm

gmctd wrote:

Has the three bolts to the engine block and one to the heat pump bracket

I can't find the one underneath. Usually, if I can feel or see it, I can figure out how to rig something to get to it. But because of the exhaust manifold shroud, I can't see or feel anything beyond the tearing of my skin. I guess I'll keep ripping things apart until I find it.
But, or course if it IS the T-stat then it will be a week without my car. :roll:

How long did it take others to remove the T-stat? (I usually take that number and double it for me as I tend to over-examine everything as I go)

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:48 pm

...and would not be intermittent. KeighJeigh, never reported that symptom and he did report the coolant did not smell like it often does with critical over heating or a blown head gasket. Our mules must have smart engine protection to keep them from trashing them selves out. I suspect this is one of the items of wisdom that came from Detroit Diesel with their ORT experience. Iremember when Thermostats were $7 BMW was getting $35 and that was in the '70s. Too bad for KeighJeigh the aftermarket has not stepped up to the plate and started selling them, the price would come down.

Over Heating CRD?!

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