Yes, definitely too bad for KeighJay! I feel like a sucker.

FINALLY got the T-stat out after giving in and yanking the turbo inlet hose. Who the HELL decided to put that extra bolt down there and not make the thing an equilateral triangle? The bolt pattern is silly. Or, better yet, why not just make the top section bolt on so I could simply pop the T-stat out of the top just like assumed could be done from the beginning? This makes absolutely no engineering sense whatsoever. You know, if I do have to buy a new T-stat, it might be worth dissecting this one and seeing if there is a clever way to pop the top off and tap some holes in it to make it disassemblable.

I stuck my fingers into the water jacket as far as I could searching for any traces of debris or gunk and, as I was afraid of, it was perfectly clean as is the T-stat.

Time to test it. Best advice for making T-stat soup on the stove? (besides not letting my wife see me abuse our kitchen utensils with greasy car parts) I was planning on sticking it in water and watch a thermometer climb as it got hotter until it pops open and then record the opening temperature against what it is supposed to be. However, I'm not sure I will be able to tell if it is opening enough or not....hard to see it that well.

Hey, while I'm at it. Now that I can actually see the EGR (barely) what is the easiest way to block it off? Can it be done without too much more tearing into this thing?

- Chris

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

After burning the livin' hell out of my thumb from an attempt to turn the thing over with a pair of tongs that slipped, I was able to see it open. It appeared to begin to open at around 175-180 and was fully open by 190.
But, how MUCH should be open? It is really hard to see, but it appears to be about 1/4" or so.

- Chris

Hey, I know: Take a pair of needle nosed pliers and simply tear the guts out of it so there is no T-stat. Problem solved.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

Most of the thermostats open 7/16" to 1/2" or more. I suspect that some of the wax has leaked out of the wax element actuator.

Does the thermostat housing have two or one port into the engine? The SM pic looks like only one.

If it has only one, the coolant must circulate through the heater core circuit all the time and return to the block to keep the coolant moving and eliminate hot spots.

BMW and VW have two stage thermostats with an extra disc to direct coolant from the bypass to the radiator to prevent hot spots inside the engine.

If you have a friend or lab who can test your coolant pH this could put your mind to rest on potential head gasket problems. If you make your own bio, this should be a piece of cake. Use your Wife's CRD as a reference for the pH and let us know. Oh, head gasket leaks will lower the pH well into the acid range. Lets hope both of your family CRDs are the same.
Harbor Freight makes a cheap pH meter for garden use, this option should only be used if you don't have pH papers or a better unit.

Good Luck

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

I'm no longer satisfied that I am able to properly evaluate the distance of the opening since I can barely see it. I'm looking at a tiny bit of it off at an angle with a flashlight held to it and steam burning my hands.
As another attempt at evaluation, I boiled it again and this time, before it closed back up, I quickly placed it under the faucet and it was able to pass the full flow of tap water. I'm not sure if this is a relevant comparison or not, but it definitely flows:




It has lots of ports all over it:





Is this the extra disc?



I drained and flushed the livin' hell out of it before I read this. I hooked up the hose and blasted the radiator, engine, hoses etc.. backwards and forwards for at least a dozen times using at least 100 gallons. No sign of any debris whatsoever. I then went to the dealer and bought $60 worth of antifreeze - it is rated at 100K miles as is the stuff I drained out. I spoke to the service manager about my EGR issue while there as well. "Sorry, the 7/70 warranty doesn't cover it and if you block it off, you definitely won't pass the increasingly strict King County emissions standards." They would be glad to take my $600.
I then got a ticket on the way home for expired tabs on a truck I rarely drive. Total cost to retrieve antifreeze: $185. Did I mention my horn no longer functions?



Thanks Turbo, I need all I can get....

- Chris[/img]

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

I'm no longer satisfied that I am able to properly evaluate the distance of the opening since I can barely see it. I'm looking at a tiny bit of it off at an angle with a flashlight held to it and steam burning my hands.
As another attempt at evaluation, I boiled it again and this time, before it closed back up, I quickly placed it under the faucet and it was able to pass the full flow of tap water. I'm not sure if this is a relevant comparison or not, but it definitely flows:




It has lots of ports all over it:





Is this the extra disc?



I drained and flushed the livin' hell out of it before I read this. I hooked up the hose and blasted the radiator, engine, hoses etc.. backwards and forwards for at least a dozen times using at least 100 gallons. No sign of any debris whatsoever. I then went to the dealer and bought $60 worth of antifreeze - it is rated at 100K miles as is the stuff I drained out. I spoke to the service manager about my EGR issue while there as well. "Sorry, the 7/70 warranty doesn't cover it and if you block it off, you definitely won't pass the increasingly strict King County emissions standards." They would be glad to take my $600.
I then got a ticket on the way home for expired tabs on a truck I rarely drive. Total cost to retrieve antifreeze: $185. Did I mention my horn no longer functions?



Thanks Turbo, I need all I can get....

- Chris

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

I'm no longer satisfied that I am able to properly evaluate the distance of the opening since I can barely see it. I'm looking at a tiny bit of it off at an angle with a flashlight held to it and steam burning my hands.
As another attempt at evaluation, I boiled it again and this time, before it closed back up, I quickly placed it under the faucet and it was able to pass the full flow of tap water. I'm not sure if this is a relevant comparison or not, but it definitely flows:




It has lots of ports all over it:





Is this the extra disc?



I drained and flushed the livin' hell out of it before I read this. I hooked up the hose and blasted the radiator, engine, hoses etc.. backwards and forwards for at least a dozen times using at least 100 gallons. No sign of any debris whatsoever. I then went to the dealer and bought $60 worth of antifreeze - it is rated at 100K miles as is the stuff I drained out. I spoke to the service manager about my EGR issue while there as well. "Sorry, the 7/70 warranty doesn't cover it and if you block it off, you definitely won't pass the increasingly strict King County emissions standards." They would be glad to take my $600.
I then got a ticket on the way home for expired tabs on a truck I rarely drive. Total cost to retrieve antifreeze: $185. Did I mention my horn no longer functions?



Thanks Turbo, I need all I can get....

- Chris

T-stat soup anyone? Thermostats taste excellent with a bit of oregano. Tastes just like chicken, but a bit more crunchy. My wife will NOT see this:

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

KeighJeigh: Your third photo showing the 2nd disc is proof positive of it being a two stage thermostat. The thermostat should move enough for the second disk to completely block the bypass hose out let below it. Then, the main part of the thermostat you can not see will open even more to allow the coolant to flow to the radiator.
Look at your third photo and notice the machined portion below the disc #2 of the thermostat. Disc #2 should be tightly against the machined seat when you had the thermostat in boiling water, if it was not, the thermostat is not fully open. The gap you see in the photo is where the coolant flows through to the main part of the thermostat and to the heater core outlet pipe. I suspect that if you took a piece of electrical wire, bent it into a U, you could find a gap along the side of the second disc where the coolant flows up to the Wax element actuator.

I marked your photo with a line showing the machined seat http://picasaweb.google.com/warp2diesel/TStat

In conclusion, if the 2nd disc did not seat on the machined surface when in the pan of boiling water, the thermostat is junk.

I would be tempted if it were mine to cut the crimp, pull out the thermostat from the housing and see if I could match it up and convert the housing to a serviceable type. A good welder could weld on a couple tabs for threading bolts into and a strong strap across the top could seal the hose outlet against an O ring gasket.
In my humble opinion, a bean counter that pull a stunt like throw away thermostat housings is anatomically challenged below the belt and above the thighs.

Steve

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Thermostat, liberty - 2.8l diesel - 2.8L DIESEL 05-06 $114.00 $83.20

Now I know why you call them a Stealer.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

I cut the housing apart & pulled out the T-stat. (Then my keyboard stopped responding to the letter "O" so I couldn't write "thermostat open" - even zero wouldn't work. Since my password has an "O" in it, I couldn't reboot to check for software problems either so I had to go buy another )

Here is the housing cut apart along the crimp line. It would have cost no more money to simply thread the outlet port or put 2 tabs with screws on them to clamp it shut. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Here is the opened thermostat after a couple of minutes boiling water. This looks like a decent opening - in fact based upon spring compression I don't think it could open any more.

However, here is what it looked like when I originally peeked down the hole on my first few attempts at testing. Perhaps I didn't let it boil long enough to heat up the housing?





$114 is the raised voice, argued-down price. The stealer list price is $149 and a week to special order. I also ordered a new sending unit so that when I put it all back together and it overheats again - and I rather suspect it will - I'll know what the problem it is NOT.

So far:

Antifreeze: $80
Sending unit: $50
Thermostat: $114
Ticket for expired tabs on a tuck only drove because the Jeep was dead: $130
Driving said truck (super cab dually) through hard core rush hour traffic for a week parking in small downtown Seattle parking stalls and paying 2X my normal fuel costs: $100.

Bloody knuckles and a newly formed need for blood pressure medication and a shrink: Priceless.

When I'm finished it will have:

New thermostat
New sending unit
Thorough back flush
New antifreeze

Other possibilities:

* Head gasket: But there are no bubbles, no loss of fluid, no steam in exhaust, plenty of power, last recorded hwy mileage 28.
* Blockage in cooling fins: Examined carefully and found no debris at all. Back-rinsed thoroughly just in case.
* Blockage in radiator core: Tests show good flow through radiator. Back flushed just in case.
Electric fan: It turns on when hot as expected so I doubt there is a problem. I still need to check more thoroughly wen it comes on and how long.
* Water pump: In my experience, a water pump's primary failure mode is leakage from a bad seal followed by bad bearings (often caused by leakage). On a rare occasion one my plug. Extremely rarely the impeller might break. In this case I thoroughly back flushed it but saw no indication of blockage or debris.
* Gauge cluster: I was told this TSB does not apply to my VIN#. I had a spirited conversation with the service manager and said I wanted them to do the TSB anyway.
* Viscous clutch fan: Maybe, but it moves a heck of a lot of air when the engine is hot. I also checked it using some suggestion from another thread including watching it's behavior when trying to free spin it.
* Lack of lubrication: If it is getting hot from lack of oil, other more serious symptoms would be present.
* Voids or bubbles in system: Doubtful it would be an issue on a car with 35K on it running factory fluid.
* Viscous cabin heater: A rare problem

My gut feeling: The cooling system is under-sized for long, slow uphills on hot day,

If it still overheats after all of this, I'll load every heavy object I know onto my trailer and start driving it up and down the steepest section of logging road I can find - mid afternoon with the AC on - until I MAKE the problem into something that IS covered by the 7/70 warranty.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

Here is something I noticed more recently:
As would be expected, the thermostat has wear areas on it: Scrapes that travel most of the way up the shaft and a wear ring that is more pronounced and goes all the way around the shaft. However, what is interesting is that the most prominent wear spot is the section that corresponds to what would be a 1/4" opening - which is what I saw when I looked down the hole when it was installed. (1/4" gap)

Question: Is this thermostat supposed to open only part way sometimes and completely at other times? Perhaps it opens part way during most normal run conditions and all the way when it gets especially hot? If so, then it is operating properly no?




Another thing I noted was that I was able to pull the shaft out of the end of the unit. (left side of picture in shadow) It had some blackish staining on it. I assume this is the shaft that extends to push the disc away from the housing as it opens.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

Yep - that one is definitely binding - and a t-stat doesn't run closed or open unless coolant is below or above open temps - it will open to the degree as coolant matches pellet, which means it can run mostly closed or mostly open, which is what that one appears to have been doing - + binding - I'd say you've found the culprit - must not be a common failure or there'd be many more complaints

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

A: The wax element actuator moves the discs proportional to the temperature. It starts to open at the low range and opens the rest of the way when it gets to the top of it's range. Exceed the temp range, the wax squirts out and the thermostat is junk.

The old school of Engineering is to do Widget Analysis where every thing is ignored until there are at least three failures. With Failure Analysis we find out the why and correct the problem. From what your photos and observations point out the scoring and gouging on the side of the thermostat plunger "will cause" the thermostat to not open and close as it was designed to do. All the thermostat needs to do is hang up for 2 to 5 minuets and the engine will over heat. Turn the engine off, the thermostat closes, puts more force on the bind and frees up, works great, until the next time it sticks.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

Well, hopefully that is it. I'll know next Thursday when everything finally arrives.

BTW: Now that I have that a bunch of stuff ripped apart and can (sort of) see the EGR, is there an easy way to block it off?

Chris

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

Turbotim went into detail as to why this trick won't work. The MAF sensor will see no air flow reduction when the EGR is to be open and cry foul to the ECM setting of the CEL. His SEGR box solves the problem and blocks the signal resulting in no CEL.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle

My CEL is already on. I have two codes P0401 (EGR failure) and P0209 (Underboost problem). When I clear them, they return within minutes. From what I've read, this indicates the EGR is stuck in the open position.
I have the SEGR but have not yet installed it. If I install it now and the EGR is indeed stuck open, it won't do me much good. So, I figured I would either: 1) Replace it for $150 and then install the SEGR; 2) Have the stealer replace it for $600 and then install the SEGR or; 3) Block it off for free and let the SEGR keep the codes clear.

But I'm not sure where to block it off and what people are using who have blocked it off.

- Chris

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

Actually a long time ago - someone did block off the EGR - and plumbed intake air in to fool the FCV.
however they didn't post any real detail and got banned for another thread - so it's been done.

however other alternatives
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=25174&highlight=egr+plate
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=17897&highlight=egr+plate

_________________
2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur

Try a PM to member n3qik or search his posts. I'm pretty sure he plated off his EGR and ignored the CEL. He may not visit anymore. Very seldom posts.

_________________
Matt B.

05 Limited CRD. Bought it new. 112k on the clock now.

GDE Eco-tune, rear differential drain plug (drilled and tapped the pumpkin), transmission pan drain plug, Fumoto oil valve, fuel filler neck restriction removed, front hitch, Hayden fan clutch, Sears P1 battery since 08, Mobil 1 5w40, 5 volt glow plugs, DIY timing belt at 109k

I've been reading the link ATXKJ provided. It looks like a bloody knuckle job no matter what I do...but I would really like to do something about it while I have the cooling system drained and everything else in pieces.
The problem is.....I can only see bits of it down there and can't come close to fitting my arm in. I can barely get my arm up underneath enough to touch the piping.

_________________
2005 CRD Limited:
* 245/70/16 Nokian Vatiiva
* Magnaflow
* Kennedy Diesel lift pump
* Custom CCV condensor
* Custom modified thermostat housing w/bleeder valve

2006 CRD Limited (wife's)
* Bone stock

Remove the coolant reservoir, and the turbo cover and exh manifold cover - can see it from the topside - I wouldn't mess with it, tho - SEGR or ORM mod pretty well eliminates the prob

_________________
'05 CRD Limited
Pricol EGT, Boost
GDE Hot '11; EDGE Trail switched
SEGR; Provent; Magnaflow;
Suncoast T\C, Transgo Tow'n'Go switch;
Cummins LP module, Fleetguard filter, Filterminder
2.5" Daystar f, OME r; Ranchos; K80767's, Al's lifted uppers
Rubicons, 2.55 Goodyears
Four in a row really makes it go

since the EGR has stuck open, block it off and install the SEGR. Thin Stainless Steel slid between the gasket and flange makes a good block. I would go for the manifold end since I have seen it with my own eyes when I put in my EGT probe.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle