If I were in your position I would look at it this way. I have a known quantity with the Liberty I have. I know how it has been maintained and what it may need down the road. With a CRD how much do you know about it? Does it have a warranty? My point is that a used CRD is an unknown quantity that could be potentially very expensive. In that position I'd keep my gasser.

bhysjulien- got a good point there, absolutely nothing wrong with our current KJ and have it set up just the way we like. If I were to change anything on it, it would be the seats.

_________________
Matt
2003 Sport
In Honor of Our Veterans

I agree with sticking with the known for sure.

I have a CRD, I know how well it was maintained by the original owner. I know what I have done to it, and I know what to expect. Whether you buy a gasser or a diesel (or any other used vehicle for that matter) you are taking a chance that there may be serious issues down the road. I generally drive the wheels off of my vehicles for that very reason. I may not have the newest, flashiest cars on the road, but I know what I've got. It takes me a couple of years of ownership before I quit worrying about what might go wrong.

Knowing what condition your vehicle is in (for better or worse) is a huge factor. If you are happy with your current ride I would just keep it.

_________________
'06 Stone White, CRD Limited
CRD Frankenlift II, Rock Lizard Rear Bumper, Mann Provent, GDE FT-ECO Tune, "Euro Torque Converter, Transgo 545RFE-H2 Shift Kit, 245/75 MT/R's on Moabs, Full Mopar Skids, Front Tow Hooks, CAT 2 Fuel filter and bleeder valve mod, Fumoto valve, Wahlbro Lift Pump, Custom 2 1/2" Exhaust

Our diesel prices have risen because the oil companies are getting more for it in the Northern European countries and is shipping ours to them.
The oil companies gave out this info when asked by congress, last little meeting they had.
They gave the usual slop to congress about being at max production and can barely keep up with our needs, than the Arco rep dropped this little bomb a few minutes later.

_________________
No one knows as much as all of us.

Amen on the seats! I have a 06 CRD and the seats are painful after about 250 miles.

I would have to say that, at least to me, not running a demonstrated & actual serious risk of burning to death because my Italian marvel went up like a roman ( get it?) candle makes the V6 the hands-down, undisputed Champeen of engine choices.

http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... hp?t=36028

How much of an MPG improvement must one see to pay for the funerals of a family of 4? Or is it cheaper if they are pre-cremated?

_________________
LOST # 633
'05 KJ 3.7L/6spd/241 245/75/16 MT's
'88 MJ 4.0L/AW4/231 SWB HPD30 & trac-loc D44 w/3.73's
A dirty Jeep is a happy Jeep

Wow, had not heard about that but I don't recall any CRD's catching fire.
I decided to keep the V6. The change to a CRD is not cost effective or really needed for us at this time. Still like em though.

_________________
Matt
2003 Sport
In Honor of Our Veterans

I fail see the connection.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

That is because he did not make a connection, just uttered a bunch of bluster and emotional B.S with no proof of a causative factor. But I will play devils advocate and make the only connection that can be made between the KJ CRD and the taxi cab fires at this point in time-- and show that is largely irrelevant anyway. One part is shared between these two vehicles that is a likely candidate for the vehicle fires-- and it is not the motor, it is the fuel filter head.

Here is what the taxicab situation does not have in common with the KJ CRD :

First, this reported issue is another vehicle not even remotely like the Jeep. Plenty of things could have gone wrong with it.. Blaming the motor itself is very premature. I will show this in painful detail shortly. If some other problem external to the CRD causes the engine fires in the taxicab and it does not apply to the Jeep, then is the 3.7 a "champeen" (sic) engine still (LOL) ?

Second, if the motor is not to blame, but if there is a common fire causation factor between the two vehicles: what is it? Very few parts outside the engine are shared between the Jeep and the taxi, one in particular is-- the fuel filter head. While this may not be the cause of the taxi fires, it is the only likely cause of the taxi fires that would be common between the Jeep KJ CRD and the taxi.

Lastly, even if it were a problem that applied to the 2.8 KJ, if the problem is easily correctable and fixable why would it influence one's purchase choice? I can think of many reasons to buy and not to buy a CRD, an already fixed issue from the past is not one of the latter.

Now, to show that the motor is not the issue:

The VM motor has been used in different variants in marine, industrial and agricultural usage for over 40 years. It has a very long track record of longevity and reliability. If the engine had a habit of catching fire it would not be one of the most popular inboard marine motors in existence.

If it were the engine's fault-- where exactly would the fire be occurring?

The fuel delivery system would be a likely culprit. The fueling system internal to this engine is not "Roman" or Italian by the way, nor is it specific to the 2.9 VM CRD motor-- it is a BOSCH system used on many engines, such as GM Duramax , Powerstroke, and C ummins. It is an industry standard fuel pump and injection system. You don't see those motors bursting into flames, so the likelyhood of the engine's fuel system starting the fire is very remote.

Then we have the turbo and exhaust. I cannot speak for the taxi's, but the turbo on the Jeep is a Garret turbo that is oil cooled. Garret is also not "Roman". It is an American company. The Garret turbo's are used in many applications and due to the engineering and experience of Garrett-- it is unlikely that they are to blame to for the engine fires in and of themselves. That is, unless another exacerbating factor was introduced (a fuel source next to the turbo or perhaps a massive turbo seal failure). The main fuel source next to the turbo would be the oil supply lines to the turbo. If they broke and dumped oil on a hot turbo, they may cause a fire. Note that the turbo oil lines are not necessarily the same between the two vehicles. For that matter, the turbos may not be the same. If the turbo hose was to blame, it would have had to go out constantly and very abruptly-- if it just leaked you would get a smoking and not a fast vehicle fire. Motor oil does not like to burn unless it is very very hot (especially synthetic). When it does start to burn, it smokes up and smells gawd awful. If this was causing the fires, it would be easy to spot. Another issue is a blown turbo seal creating a runaway through oil blowby leaking oil into the intake-- but then the cause would be known as the engine would over-rev uncontrollably and go boom-- not just start burning. Since these issues are easy to diagnose, it is not likely that they are the issues. The rest of the exhaust systems and their routing are not going to be similar at all. If exhaust routing or other heat build up under the bonnet is to blame for the fires on the taxis-- it once again has nothing to do with the Jeep as the parts are not the same.

The electrical system would also be suspect. Many of the electrical system parts are also made by BOSCH and are standardized (computer and network). These computers and the connectors are not known to cause fire issues and are under wide use. The electrical parts that are not standardized would be stuff like the wiring harness-- which are in no way shape or form shared betwixt the Jeep and an English taxi cab! The packaging of the Jeep and the taxi are entirely different.

Which leaves us with the most likely cause that COULD be shared between these two vehicles:

The most likely culprit of these vehicle fires is the POS plastic fuel filter head external to the motor (which is not a part of the engine, nor was any of it spec'ed or designed by VM). This is a known issue on the CRD and was investigated by the NTSB with no conclusive findings. It appears the fuel head is shared between these two vehicles (a BOSCH part only used very infrequently and in both these applications). It is been known on the CRD forum for a year or so now. It is easily fixable at this point. For starters, you can check your fuel heater switch and make sure it is plugged in tight and is not generating resistance between the two connections (heat). if it is replace the faulty assembly or unplug the fuel heater. Other fuel filter assemblies and heating units are also available. Simply tightening and modifying the connectors as shown in the CRD section works in most instances. Note that this does not prove that the filter is the cause of the taxi fires, but if the cause is shared between the two vehicles-- this is likely the issue and not the engine, which is about the only other shared component. While no one condones this sloppy and potentially deadly workmanship, it is a known issue with a fix, just like the blower motor recall in all KJ's, which also caused fires. To coddle the fan issue and excuse it while giving the seal of death to the CRD is ridiculous.

Conclusion:

The most likely source of the issue is the fuel filter and heater assembly. It is a known issue on the CRD. It may or may not be the issue on the taxi. The motor itself is not likely the issue, it is an extremely remote possibility. To take a an industrial engine block that has been produced for over 40 years, decide off a preliminary report that it is responsible for 15 taxi's burning, and then to extrapolate that and apply it to a largely unrelated vehicle with the same motor (all the while where plenty of other applications of the engine have been in service for 40 years with no issues), and then to tar such vehicles with a brush of death and destruction-- is stupidity.

Lastly, if the fuel manager starting a fire (which has a workaround and a fix) is a good enough reason to avoid a vehicle (and it very well may be), then what about the faulty ac fan causing fires (with a recall and work around as well)? It makes no sense to boycott the CRD KJ and coddle the imperfect fire safety record of the gasser. Both have had potential fire hazard issues, and both issues have fixes. If the fact that one of the fire issues existed in the first place is so troubling that the customer would not want the vehicle known to burn up-- then it is in both instances and the point is moot to begin with.

Besides, I would not want anyone having the fan helping to cremate your precious family just so you could drive a KJ to the mall with the ac on. Maybe walking everywhere is safer than driving a KJ, of course then you might get hit by a car. Who knows, it might even be a KJ with bad ball joints and on fire and out of control?

By the way, if your gasser engine gets a fuel line leak it is actually more likely to burn up than a diesel. Gas is much more flammable thanks to the evaporative vapors. Diesel does not vaporize the same way. This is one reason jet aircraft are considered much safer than gas powered general aviation aircraft they replaced (jet fuel is essentially kerosene, which is a lightweight oil like diesel and thus does not vaporize like gasoline).

Ummmmm, if you read the thread, I do believe that a dieseler posted that this is a known issue and that the NTSB was ignoring it. See that? Can you find it? OH WAIT! It was PABLO that posted that it is indeeed a potential problem for CRD's! How could he have forgotten that?

It is likely the fuel filter head. Known issue here, but the NTSB decided not to do anything about it. Maybe now they will reconsider. Regardless, there is a work around (make sure your fuel heater connection is not leaking or getting warm).

He seems to be trying to MAKE the connection in one thread, yet downplaying it another. Curious.

I initially poo-pahed the cab fires as being a lot of noise about nothing, until another poster pointed out that I was wrong, and that the fires are a significant issue based on the percentages involved. I publicly corrected myself. Again, READ THE THREAD.

I guess reading the thread is a bit tougher than blindingly blustering in defense of your cash outlay and is a bit too much to ask.

I think that most readers also got the tongue in cheek nature of the post easily. Some groups seem to have no ability to withstand any comments other than the most lovingly posted ones. Usually such insecure people are trying to display as much bravado as possible to fool themselves and they cannot let any tiny break in the faith appear. House of cards, and all of that, perhaps? Could be, I guess.

But for goodness sake, lighten up, Francis. It is a internet forum, not something serious like football......

_________________
LOST # 633
'05 KJ 3.7L/6spd/241 245/75/16 MT's
'88 MJ 4.0L/AW4/231 SWB HPD30 & trac-loc D44 w/3.73's
A dirty Jeep is a happy Jeep

We know nothing about the lodon cabs, I doubt they use anything other than the longblock and accessories that the jeep uses, this includes wiring harness, filter head, etc etc.


I don't see how the steam engines were to blame for the sinking of the titanic.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

So, for future reference, we should ignore Pablo? I was using his info that they were related.

Again, just remember that this is about as serious as a Mickey Mouse cartoon.

_________________
LOST # 633
'05 KJ 3.7L/6spd/241 245/75/16 MT's
'88 MJ 4.0L/AW4/231 SWB HPD30 & trac-loc D44 w/3.73's
A dirty Jeep is a happy Jeep

Pablo is correct that the 05+ filter head has issues.

But there is no connection between that and the london cabs. like I said, all they share is the engine, its not like they also have a 545RFE.

_________________
http://www.Colorado4Wheel.com
"Its not about what you can DO with your Jeep, its about where you can GO with your Jeep."
Knowledgeable - But Caustic

You are awful quick to accuse me of poor reading comprehension skills, perhaps oh wise physician-- you should cure yourself and remove the beam from your own eye and actually read my post on THIS thread before responding to it?

From my post in THIS thread:

"This is a known issue on the CRD and was investigated by the NTSB with no conclusive findings...It is been known on the CRD forum for a year or so now. It is easily fixable at this point... "

In other words, I stated in THIS thread that it is a known fire hazard issue. Further, in THIS thread-- that the NTSB investigated and choose to do nothing about it. You did not even have to go over to the other thread to see that, you just needed to read what I posted here in full. No information was withheld from you, nor did it contradict the other thread. Nothing was "forgot" by me, just grossly misunderstood or ignored by you.

Furthermore, nowhere in the previous reply did I say that this WAS in-fact the conclusive cause of taxi fires-- or that any relationship actually did exist. The argument was a straw-man argument ( and was clearly marked as such) showing the unlikely-hood of any relationship existing between the two vehicles. It was the best argument that could be made at the time, and the fact that the argument is so poor-- is the entire point. That point you have still missed-- or chosen to ignore and not respond to directly, instead downplaying it as a joke. Suggesting death of family members as a lighthearted joke is pretty sick. In addition, if you read your smart-alek comment on the other post about CRD drivers (posted before you made this one), it is obvious you are trolling and deliberately creating a divisive agenda, your assertion that it is just a joke notwithstanding.

Furthermore, SirSam states in the previous post that the filter's are not even the same. Allrighty then. I assumed they were from info posted in the other thread, which I obviously DID read, and which indicated at the time that the same filter assembly was used on both vehicles (it replacing the older trouble free Racor filter assembly on the KJ and possibly on the taxi).

As for defending my " cash outlay"-- The CRD markup was $1435. That upgrade included a Select-Trac transfer case, a 545RFE transmission, a block heater, aluminum wheels, Optima red top battery, and extra thick insulation. Many experienced gasser drivers would have paid that to upgrade the 42LRE by itself if it were an option for them. The transmission alone is almost worth the entire upgrade price-- let alone the motor and other goodies. Just recently a CRD motor was posted for sale in the CRD section at a special price for LOST customers: $2500 bucks. This was a $1000 over the original option price, just for the motor alone. When people are buying up wrecked CRD KJ's just to chop them up for the motor for swap projects, I don't need to post to "justify my investment", it has already been justified. I do however, feel it necessary to frame your wild death claims in the proper prospective-- and I was not the only one that failed to see your point or the reason for that trollish post.

If brevity is the essence of wit, well, I guess that point is obvious.

_________________
LOST # 633
'05 KJ 3.7L/6spd/241 245/75/16 MT's
'88 MJ 4.0L/AW4/231 SWB HPD30 & trac-loc D44 w/3.73's
A dirty Jeep is a happy Jeep

That's like saying my 45RFE should have exploded 5 or 6 times by the time my Jeep has reached the mileage it has because the two transmissions are largely identical.

Nor has my KJ caught fire. So the common denominator is not the 45RFE.

So...Since the common denominator in the fires is not a 545RFE.

So what could it be?

Oh wait I know

































The 2.8 CRD engine !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Okay now lets play nice,those CRD guys get real pissy when confronted that on the bad engineering job the CRD KJ(US version)was.

this has been very enjoyable and thats all I will say, anymore and I would be in trouble like some others

_________________
MUDD'S MOTORSPORT'S We do IFS lift installs ,
03 OVERLAND EDITION /Kilby-Skidrow-Mopar-4XGuard skids/ 2.5 inch TOTAL CONTROL JBA coilovers -JBA Arms/MOABS-31 FALKEN WILDPEAK AT3W / 4.10's etc, 04 Kilimanjaro Edition loaded, plus 05 KJ limited

Just to make the obvious point - there have been no fires associated with the Jeep install - just leaks.
- if the London Cabs have the same fuel heads and are catching on fire -
then they have the fuel head located somewhere that diesel could drip on a live wire/spark/heat source.
it's not easy for diesel to catch on fire - no where near as dangerous as gas

_________________
2005 CRD
stuff
Skeptic quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur