vibration in drivetrain at low rpm in 4th and 5th gear

05infernoCRDL · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:51 pm

chadhargis wrote:

I don't have the resistor on mine.

I checked, and the dealer tech neglected to install it (that is if I'm looking in the right place).

look at the back plug on the pass side i think... it would be there or i think GMCTD put it at his TCM

kb61751 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:34 pm

I would guess that we ALL have this issue with the rumble. I would rate this on top of my list to find out an answer. I will continue to look for symptoms, and ideas. All most all of the other issues with the CRD, we know about for sure, this one is still a mystery.

chadhargis · **Posted:** Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:30 pm

It is a major problem to me. I can't believe the issue is good for the vehicle. It's a fairly violent shaking when it occurs.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:57 am

Has anyone else who installed the Transgo kit had shudder problems?

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:03 am

nursecosmo wrote:

Has anyone else who installed the Transgo kit had shudder problems?

The transgo kit will not fix the shudder problem by itself. Torgue converter, front pump and transgo kit will fix TQ shutter if that is what you have.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

No shudder on mine since May of 07, when I had the SunCoast, Transgo shift kit, and new style tranny pump installed. In fact, as I posted previously, the tranny and powertrain was far quieter and had much less vibration and none of that "both feet on the brake pedal" at stop lights to keep it from moving. In July of that same year, when the fuel head went south, I had some slight shudder shortly before it stalled out on the road with a P0093 code. Replaced the fuel head with the Racor and then added the lift pump shortly after that. All was well until a strong constant vibration on acceleration only from worn ujoints happened, but that was across the rpm range and any gear from 2nd upward, not like the old bucking/lurching issue at specific speeds. With the ujoint vibration, it felt different - it was exactly like driving on those rumble strips on the side of the Interstate. Nothing like the tc vibration issue in my case.

I know of one other CRD (Retmil46) who also has the Suncoast/transgo/new pump, and lift pump/fuel head upgrade and his doesn't have the vibration issue. I've been in his CRD and it's smooth on Interstate acceleration and no vibration at all at any speed or gear. Both his and my CRD also have the segr mod. I also ran the ORM mod prior to the segr and no vibration with that mod either. I also note that both Mitch and I indexed both rear and front driveshafts prior to having the Suncoast upgrade done. Both of us also used the same transmission shop with a strong reputation for expertise and high quality work.

Some of the assumptions posted earlier are not entirely correct. Not every CRD with the Suncoast upgrade still have vibration issues.

Also, if the InMotion was performed without a decent torque converter upgrade, its just begging for vibration and reliability issues down the road. More torque on a marginal tc is going to be problematic. The factory replacement tc doesn't always do well even with the F37 detune. My 2nd Chrysler tc started failing in less than 10K miles even with the power detune from Chrysler. I didn't do the InMotion tune until I had the Suncoast/other options upgrade and an auxiliary tranny cooler installed for 5 months, just to see how it worked with stock F37 power levels. There was no tranny/tc vibration issues before or after the InMotion upgrade. None. If there were, I'd post it without hesitation and the CRD would have been sold long ago if there were.

John H. wrote an article in Turbo Diesel Register last year (John is the trainer at Carson Jeep Dodge iirc, one of the largest Chrysler dealerships in the Western area) describing the issues with the Chrysler F37, including the replacement tc. He complained of how his replacement tc had a very strong vibration that wasn't present in his factory tc that had not failed, but was replaced due to F37. He wasn't happy with the results and was looking at a SunCoast or ATS replacement tc.

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:53 pm

I installed the line pressure resistor on the Tow'n'Go switch in my dashboard panel, ran the wiring into the TCM harness, rather than disturb the weather-proof seal at the sensor on the transmission, low exhaust-side rear

Can you link to that F37 article, Ranger1? I'd like to read it, as I'm sure would others

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

If I can still find it and TDR has placed it the freely available area versus the subscription section, I'll post a link.

Update: For those who have a TDR subscription, it's in issue 57, AUG/SEP/OCT 2007, page 104, titled "Ranch Dressing". Until I find the online version, here is a partial quote:

"We've had a couple of 'flashes' that have reduced torque and overall performance. This was done supposedly to prevent torque converter failure. Why not replace the torque converter with one that can handle the low end torque of the diesel?

...Then came the recall to replace the torque converters. The new part introduced vibrations throughout the vehicle upon lockup of the torque converter in third, fourth and fifth gears. To assure ourselves it wasn't the installation procedures, another one was installed in ours (John works at a CJD dealership) without the use of air wrenches - everything was hand torqued to spec. It was worse and that one has a slippering, chattering clutch! It gives you some indication of the problem when you go on line and find that there are 415 backordered, and no estimated date of when there will be any replacements in the pipeline.... This means that all of us with this particular model will have to live with a vehicle which vibrates like crazy, has about half the performance it originally had, and if you live in the mountains, drives like its got the hiccups.

...Moving on to the Liberty vibration issue, I'm ready to try one of the aftermarket torque converters....the thing that's so aggravating is that the original one that was taken out was doing just fine."

This should be short enough to avoid trouble with TDR copyrights.

I don't see it online, but a backcopy can be ordered here:
http://www.tdr-online.com/shopexd.asp?id=76

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:24 pm

Ok, thanks for taking the time to type that in - I think I bought a TDR membership when I bought this one and jeepforum, but just never hung out there, much - need to go back thru older emails to see if I got a password

Bad news, if there is a bad last batch of oem TC's - guess we don't hear of it much, here, with less than 500 members out of ~17000 CRD KJ's, even tho some of those are Euro's with manual trans - then there are the Grand Cherokee members, and the members on the Hemi forums with the GC's, Rams, Chargers, and 300's, all with the venerable 545RFE - those Hemi TCC's are more aggressive than the CRD unit, and are the versions Suncoast uses to make our upgrade

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:54 pm

Thanks Ranger1, that was some good info. It is interesting that the author of the TDR article also concluded that the problem was clutch chattering. I still have not installed the Suncoast TC because as you mentioned, manyt who have installed the Suncoast with Transgo have eliminated the problem but some still have it.

I am of the opinion that the factory TC with the retarded plastic stator could certainly stand to be of higher quality but is adequate for the needs of a standard tune CRD and would probably handle an Inmotion or similar tune as well as long as there is no heavy towing involved and the chattering can be eliminated. I cannot remember reading of any factory TC's which grenaded although there must have been one or two. The problem seems to be with the clutch chattering.

GM, when you switch to Resistor mode; does the tranny seem to learn and adapt to it?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Quote:
I am of the opinion that the factory TC with the retarded plastic stator could certainly stand to be of higher quality but is adequate for the needs of a standard tune CRD and would probably handle an Inmotion or similar tune as well as long as there is no heavy towing involved and the chattering can be eliminated. I cannot remember reading of any factory TC's which grenaded although there must have been one or two. The problem seems to be with the clutch chattering.

My original tc grenaded right in the middle of an intersection. No towing, no tuning, nothing but Interstate driving 50 miles per day. The replacement tc lasted less than 10K. The first grenaded TC I ever remember reading about was in June 05 from a CRD owner pulling a trailer.

On a Yahoo message board, a poster who identified himself as a VM Motori employee named Kevin, answered a few early CRD owners questions about the shudder feeling when under hard acceleration. This was not the bucking after reaching 55-60 then letting off the accelerator pedal, but a deep seated vibration when shifting 3 to 4, 4 to 5. He claimed that Chrysler had not used a torque converter strong enough to handle the torque of the VM Motori engine. This was in late May 05, possibly early June. He claimed that the shudder was the tc clutch springs bottoming out. At that point I didn't take him seriously, but time proved him right. He disappeared from the Yahoo board not long after that.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:42 pm

Ranger1 wrote:

He claimed that Chrysler had not used a torque converter strong enough to handle the torque of the VM Motori engine. This was in late May 05, possibly early June. He claimed that the shudder was the tc clutch springs bottoming out. At that point I didn't take him seriously, but time proved him right. He disappeared from the Yahoo board not long after that.

Other than your own TC blowing up (do you have pics BTW) I dont think that there have been very many, but I could be wrong. From the description of this VM employee (although VM has nothing to do with DCX transmission development) it is the Clutch pack that is slipping not the TC. I have never had the shudder during shifting, only under moderate to hard acceleration while in 4th or 5th lockup. It should be remembered that the TC and clutch are two seperate entities in one packedge. Just because one fails does not mean that both are faulty.

The reason that I think that both of these items are adequate for our vehicle and that the problem stems from line under pressure is that the slippage does not occur at max torque (2600 RPM according to dyno numbers) or max HP (3650 RPM per Dyno) but rather at 1600 -1700 (very signifficantly less than max power)in my own CRD and up to 1900 RPM reported by some other members.

kb61751 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:50 pm

I have to agree with you on this. How can the line pressure be raised? Or how can this be fixed. Right now I am very careful around the rpm of 1600 - 2800 rpm. If I want to accelerate hard, I lower the speed and let it unlock.

bigugly · **Posted:** Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:49 pm

i noticed a couple of comments about balancing the drive shaft after U joint replacement. I had my joints replaced in an effort to reduce the vibration in 4th and 5th gear I was having.

at time I have had some new vibrations since u joint replacement and I wonder if the shop I had do the work did not balance the drive shaft. How is it done?

Also, since I have had the U joints replaced I have only had the 4th and 5th gear vibration a couple of times and I have put almost 2000 miles on since the U joint replacement.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

The clutch he was referring to was the lockup clutch in the TC itself, but the only springs I could find are actually in the stator inside of the TC. I don't have pictures of the TC - the dealership replaced the first TC. The tech who replaced the TC said it had parts rattling around it on the inside and a lot of debris sitting on the tranny pan.

If the TC was adequate for even the original factory stock power rating, I don't think Chrysler would have downgraded the engine power in the F37 campaign. There wouldn't have been any need to. As for the expected failure rate, if there were 415 on backorder out of 12,000 CRD's, that's ~ 3.5% expected replacement rate, which is fairly significant.

If you do have the InMotion done with your factory TC, it should be a good test case of how well it holds up. Good luck with it and let us know how it turns out.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:52 am

Ranger1 wrote:

If the TC was adequate for even the original factory stock power rating, I don't think Chrysler would have downgraded the engine power in the F37 campaign. There wouldn't have been any need to. As for the expected failure rate, if there were 415 on backorder out of 12,000 CRD's, that's ~ 3.5% expected replacement rate, which is fairly significant.

If you do have the InMotion done with your factory TC, it should be a good test case of how well it holds up. Good luck with it and let us know how it turns out.

But those 415 on backorder were not for failed TC's according to the TDR article. It was implied that they were all installed as customer satisfaction service recalls. They were not recalled because they were failing but because of the 1600 RPM shudder which incidentally was not even fixed with new TC's or the F37 castration. The main change to the vehicle with the F37 is that the shift points were changed so that the OD would engage at a higher RPM so that there is less of a chance for the shudder to occur.

Based on DCX's history with other problems associated with the CRD, such as Oil in CAC tubes, malfunctioning EGR, and the air in filter problem which have since been fixed on later model Libertys, I don't think that they actually knew what was causing the problem but figured that if they detuned it slightly and dropped the performance, it would probably make the problem go away.

I'm not arguing that the Suncoast TC is not an improvement (if nothing else the lower stall speed is a huge upgrade), but rather that the shuddering problem may not be because of a weak factory TC, and based on the available evidence suggest that it is a function of a TCM programming glitch or possibly a weak tranny oil pump.

I may try installing the Transgo kit instead of the whole enchilada, just to see how it affects the shudder. Which brings me back to my initial question:

Has anyone who installed the Transgo kit continued to have shudder problems?

GM does your rig adapt to the resistor when you switch it on for a while?

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:13 am

Ranger1 wrote:

...Moving on to the Liberty vibration issue, I'm ready to try one of the aftermarket torque converters....the thing that's so aggravating is that the original one that was taken out was doing just fine."

Somwhere I read the original 05 and early 06 TC's had a plastic cushion of some type that could not take the torque of the diesel and was the cause the early failures on the 05's. They went back to the earlier design without the cushion on the replacement and later TC's. This could explain what your feeling.
I think the source was someone quoting a engineer they met on an air plane.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Joe,

That quote was from John H. concerning his personal Liberty CRD. He was a bit out of sorts because he did the upgrade (twice) expecting improvement and it made things worse for him. Understandable.

My first TC grenaded on the way to work one morning locking up the wheels. The 2nd replacement TC began slipping around 5K miles later and worsened to the point at 9500 miles later that while climbing a small incline one day in tc lockup, started screaming. It then was parked for 4 weeks waiting on a replacement tc in April 07. When the tc replacement parts were still on backorder in early May 07 I abandoned Chrysler and went with the Suncoast/shift kit/new tranny pump upgrades. Shift quality issues, excessive slippage and vibrations disappeared and have not returned since. Lockup occurs at lower rpm and with smooth crisp shifts and considerably less vibration. I'm very happy with it now.

My thoughts on some of these issues mentioned is that there is more than type of vibration involved with this vehicle, the descriptions are subjective, and there isn't an accurate way online to determine what's occurring. But knowing that a TC needs good mechanical construction and proper hydraulic pressure to lockup properly and transfer power effectively narrows down the areas to look at. Tranny pump, oil seals and valve body.

If you look at what GMCTD posted about the condition of his original tc oil seal, you begin to realize that many issues are probably worsened by poor installation procedures. A poor oil seal on the TC is going to cause problems, as will valve body issues. That's why it's vital to have a good transmission shop do any repairs or upgrades, versus the warranty work tech at a dealership. If not, it's a hit or miss proposition.

Good luck.

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:31 am

The line pressure resistor makes for harsh shifting on casual acceleration - fwot is a whole 'nuther story, tho, and probably works well when loaded, as in towing a trailer - the 2nd-3rd upshift is harsh because of oem trans programming, holding current gear range as the next up-range gear is engaging, then slowly releasing that previous range - this makes for smooth shifting to the insensitive buns-dyno, but is felt as mush-shifting to the trained and highly-sensitive performance-oriented version - the resistor horribly exaggerates that two-range contention, such that the KJ actually begins slowing during that 2-3 shift event on casual acceleration take-offs - thus, I leave the switch in oem position except on acceleration trials - even without the resistor, INMOTION ST-2 makes those big soft-compound Goodyear 2.55's shriek in mortal agony on dry concrete, which as we all know, provides highest dry (and wet) traction of all street pavement surfaces (also eats tire tread, fastest), I therefore switch-in the resistor - there is still room for improved transmission management within the TCM, but when the Transgo line-pressure offset-resistor is switched-in, resultant fwot automatic shifting does approach soul-satisfying experience

whoopee!!!
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... 830#388830

line-pressure resistor install pics are towards the bottom of this post:
http://www.lostjeeps.com/forum/phpBB3/vie ... 072#361072

chadhargis · **Posted:** Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:38 am

The shudder I have isn't from the TC as I have the Suncoast. I also have the TransGo kit.

Shudder is still very much there.

vibration in drivetrain at low rpm in 4th and 5th gear

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