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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:23 am 
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Option 4:

Remove alternator from engine and have the dealer replace the decoupler.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:27 am 
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tonycrd wrote:
Option 4:

Remove alternator from engine and have the dealer replace the decoupler.

:lol:


You are quite rigtht that is another option. Also option 5 is replace the entire alternator.

I am still having trouble attaching pics. Can anyone help me?

Javert.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:27 pm 
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Yes I can help, you need to have them internetbased, so upload them to a server, like http://www.imageshack.us

Then after you upload copy the direct link and peg that inbetween the tags.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:33 pm 
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Here is a pic of the proper way to torque the decoupler onto the alternator. One of the pics shows how to do it on a Valeo (corvette) alternator. The other pic shows the type of tool used on a Denso (Jeep) Alternator.

Hope this helps,

Javert

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:09 pm 
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Yeah, that makes sense. Thanks Javert!

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:33 pm 
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Put a torque wrench on one that has been in use, how much torque does it take to back it off? More than the tightening torque, right? How did it get tighter? The load on it in use is higher than the torque you used to install it, that is why, it is shock loaded while in use, constantly being hammered on as it unlocks/locks. Also check on how much the decoupler moves in relation to the shaft when torquing it. After about 20 ft lbs it will not move any more on the way to 60 right? Last thing you sound like you might be an engineer, I work with them all the time some are pretty good, some think just because they drank there way through college that they know everything.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:07 am 
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Option #5: (more typical of how my projects often end up)
* A Rotozip saw with a metal cutting disc, vice grips, chisel, hammer. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:09 pm 
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KeighJeigh wrote:
Option #5: (more typical of how my projects often end up)
* A Rotozip saw with a metal cutting disc, vice grips, chisel, hammer. :shock:


:lol:

Kinda what Bob and I posted earlier, just bang the darn thing of.

And I agree with Bob, after you start you engine with the new decoupler it will tighten itself, draw some power by turning on the rear defogger and some other electronics and it should be ok.

And for it to come of by itself...I gues the only way to do that is to have a 4 year old tighten it by hand, start the engine, rev it right away to 6000 and then switch off the ignition.

In previous posts people are talking about torque settings for gasoline engines, and those are v6 and v8's. Those run a whole lot smoother than 4 bangers and decelarate quicker then our diesels.

I do not want to argue the importance of torque settings, they are there for a reason. But I think that on this particular part of our crd's we do not have to make a big fuss about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:09 am 
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Tighten it , don't tighten it. I don't care anymore. I thought the name of this topic was "Need some decoupler help".

Only trying to help,

Javert.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:08 pm 
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javert wrote:
Tighten it , don't tighten it. I don't care anymore. I thought the name of this topic was "Need some decoupler help".

Only trying to help,

Javert.


You provided the correct method to install the pulley. There will always be those who take shortcuts, and not even embarrassed at their own slackness, ridicule the correct way. If you don't have a choice, that different.

Tony - the V6 or V8 being smoother, is easier on the pulley/decoupler because of less torque twist between power cycles. The decoupler on a 4 cylinder diesel is going to be subject to more shock, not less. It should require more tighenting force to be safely installed. I've read many of your posts in other areas of LOST and have been impressed with your inventiveness in getting things done when the required tools aren't available. That's fine when you don't have a choice, but a $15 tool in this case eliminates any question of how much force should be applied. Pretty cheap insurance.

Bob V - you've discovered what you can get away with by experimentation. It doesn't mean that you don't know anything, to answer your question. It just means you don't follow best practices of using a known standard. You'd rather hand tighten. Fine, but there are those who being more self disciplined, follow better working practices. Perhaps you should post where you work, if you're actually proud of how you avoid using a torque wrench when you think it safe - it may save someone in your area from using your services if they don't agree. Some people paying for repairs actually expect best practices. At least they would know how you work going into your place of business.

I watched an ASE tech rebuilding a Dodge pickup auto tranny while waiting on my Jeep to be released from one of its many early repair visits. From a conversation he struck up with me, it was obvious he knew how this tranny worked inside and out. Yet there he was, disassembling and reassembling it on a filthy workbench, loaded with dirt, grease, and metal shavings where someone had drilled something before he got there!

With him, it was lack of cleanliness, with you it's not using a torque wrench when you feel it's not needed. Both of you discovered how much you can get away with, most times without failure. All of these discoveries are subjective, and not based on any measurable, repeatable standard of reliability. For all I know, the guy in the tire store may have "discovered" that if he hand tightens lug nuts, it never comes back on him. Where does it end? The problem with these subjective decisions are that they rarely improve anything, may well end up in catastrophic failure and don't change unless something extremely bad happens and forces rethinking.

Just look at what Wall Street did with the financial system. They thought they knew better, could change the rules of common sense and violated long standard, financial safeguards and for a while, got away with it. Didn't work out so well.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:29 pm 
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Ranger1 wrote:
javert wrote:
Tighten it , don't tighten it. I don't care anymore. I thought the name of this topic was "Need some decoupler help".

Only trying to help,

Javert.


You provided the correct method to install the pulley. There will always be those who take shortcuts, and not even embarrassed at their own slackness, ridicule the correct way. If you don't have a choice, that different.

Tony - the V6 or V8 being smoother, is easier on the pulley/decoupler because of less torque twist between power cycles. The decoupler on a 4 cylinder diesel is going to be subject to more shock, not less. It should require more tighenting force to be safely installed. I've read many of your posts in other areas of LOST and have been impressed with your inventiveness in getting things done when the required tools aren't available. That's fine when you don't have a choice, but a $15 tool in this case eliminates any question of how much force should be applied. Pretty cheap insurance.

Bob V - you've discovered what you can get away with by experimentation. It doesn't mean that you don't know anything, to answer your question. It just means you don't follow best practices of using a known standard. You'd rather hand tighten. Fine, but there are those who being more self disciplined, follow better working practices. Perhaps you should post where you work, if you're actually proud of how you avoid using a torque wrench when you think it safe - it may save someone in your area from using your services if they don't agree. Some people paying for repairs actually expect best practices. At least they would know how you work going into your place of business.

I watched an ASE tech rebuilding a Dodge pickup auto tranny while waiting on my Jeep to be released from one of its many early repair visits. From a conversation he struck up with me, it was obvious he knew how this tranny worked inside and out. Yet there he was, disassembling and reassembling it on a filthy workbench, loaded with dirt, grease, and metal shavings where someone had drilled something before he got there!

With him, it was lack of cleanliness, with you it's not using a torque wrench when you feel it's not needed. Both of you discovered how much you can get away with, most times without failure. All of these discoveries are subjective, and not based on any measurable, repeatable standard of reliability. For all I know, the guy in the tire store may have "discovered" that if he hand tightens lug nuts, it never comes back on him. Where does it end? The problem with these subjective decisions are that they rarely improve anything, may well end up in catastrophic failure and don't change unless something extremely bad happens and forces rethinking.

Just look at what Wall Street did with the financial system. They thought they knew better, could change the rules of common sense and violated long standard, financial safeguards and for a while, got away with it. Didn't work out so well.
Very well said.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:43 pm 
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Hmm so I guess I messed this one up pretty good. :shock:

Javert, your help is much apreciated, please stay on and keep the good advise coming. There will always be people who do not agree or think differently...

Ranger1 wrote:
You provided the correct method to install the pulley. There will always be those who take shortcuts, and not even embarrassed at their own slackness, ridicule the correct way.


Yes Javert, you did.

But then my opinion is that we do not have to go al anal over the correct torque setting for this particular part. And no I am not embarrassed for doing it my way, nor am I rediculing the correct way. I did tighten the thing with a wrench (see earlier posts), just not a torque wrench.

I only said how I did it, not that everybody should do it that way and rip the torque setting pages out of the FSM.

Ranger1 wrote:
Tony - the V6 or V8 being smoother, is easier on the pulley/decoupler because of less torque twist between power cycles. The decoupler on a 4 cylinder diesel is going to be subject to more shock, not less.


I rest my case. (think about it for a bit before you respond, keyword being righthand thread)

BTW:
Thank you for your kind words Ranger1, I do have to get inventive at times since I no longer have acces to a fully equiped workshop. Sigh....:?

(....and only my wife can hear me scream and curse when I find I do not have the right tool for the job :D )

Tony.

PS: I do wish we could lighten up a bit on ol'Bob, imo he also only means the decoupler settings just like me. Not meaning he wrenches (if at all) without a torque wrench on other peoples vehicles.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:46 pm 
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I probably do more wrenching in a day than most of you do in a lifetime. I have been to more ADVANCED classes than classes you took in high school. Again I understand what is happening when something is torqued.It is more than just a number to me.
I work as a millwright now ( for the last25+years), LOTS more $$$$ than auto mechanic. My company Trusts my skills with multi million dollar machinery that cost thousands of dollars per minute to be down ( no exaggeration). AND I keep it running it top condition by UNDERSTANDING how it works.
If you don't trust me, or are not sure, I recommend that you torque it, it will not hurt a thing. But then again, how do you know what you are REALLY torquing it to? When was the last time your torque wrench was calibrated? Is it a dry value or lightly oiled? Are you SURE you are pulling the torque wrench exactly perpendicular to the fastener? Are both parts of the fastener the same temperature? Did you bring it up to torque in three steps, or all at once? Was it a nice smooth motion or did you just yank on it? How clean where the threads when you put it together?
The most exacting torquing procedures that I know of is the the steam/water turbine cases, and you do NOT use a torque wrench. The studs are hollow so you can insert a heater in them to lengthen the studs and turn the nut a certain amount, in order, then you go over it again, and again and again till you have reach a predetermined amount if fastener stretch. If you been around much at all you would know that bolt stretch is MUCH more accurate than a torque wrench.
My main point is that the load (tightening) that the decoupler gets from the unlocking/locking (shock load) during normal operation is greater than the torque it got with the torque wrench, like trying to drive a nail by pushing on a hammer.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:51 pm 
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Bob V wrote:
I probably do more wrenching in a day than most of you do in a lifetime. I have been to more ADVANCED classes than classes you took in high school. Again I understand what is happening when something is torqued.It is more than just a number to me.
I work as a millwright now ( for the last25+years), LOTS more $$$$ than auto mechanic. My company Trusts my skills with multi million dollar machinery that cost thousands of dollars per minute to be down ( no exaggeration). AND I keep it running it top condition by UNDERSTANDING how it works.
If you don't trust me, or are not sure, I recommend that you torque it, it will not hurt a thing. But then again, how do you know what you are REALLY torquing it to? When was the last time your torque wrench was calibrated? Is it a dry value or lightly oiled? Are you SURE you are pulling the torque wrench exactly perpendicular to the fastener? Are both parts of the fastener the same temperature? Did you bring it up to torque in three steps, or all at once? Was it a nice smooth motion or did you just yank on it? How clean where the threads when you put it together?
The most exacting torquing procedures that I know of is the the steam/water turbine cases, and you do NOT use a torque wrench. The studs are hollow so you can insert a heater in them to lengthen the studs and turn the nut a certain amount, in order, then you go over it again, and again and again till you have reach a predetermined amount if fastener stretch. If you been around much at all you would know that bolt stretch is MUCH more accurate than a torque wrench.
My main point is that the load (tightening) that the decoupler gets from the unlocking/locking (shock load) during normal operation is greater than the torque it got with the torque wrench, like trying to drive a nail by pushing on a hammer.
Wrenching on vehicles is vastly different them machining parts,all the classes in the world means nothing if you do not apply what you learned which seams you do not.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:15 am 
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Quote:
But then again, how do you know what you are REALLY torquing it to? When was the last time your torque wrench was calibrated? Is it a dry value or lightly oiled? Are you SURE you are pulling the torque wrench exactly perpendicular to the fastener? Are both parts of the fastener the same temperature? Did you bring it up to torque in three steps, or all at once? Was it a nice smooth motion or did you just yank on it? How clean where the threads when you put it together?


Bob, the more you reveal that you know how to do the job correctly, the worse your first recommendations appear. Your justification for winging it is that if not correctly used, torque wrenches may apply a different value than desired. Here is a simple answer: Use them correctly. Clean dry threads are the general rule, but it never hurts to check and see what's required, now does it? Pro's do it every day, seemingly without all of the excuses you have to offer.

I'm not buying for a moment that hand tightening an alternator pulley is more precise, closer to what the manufacturer wants it tightened to, or the preferred recommended practice over using a torque wrench.

At the very least, using a calibrated wrench gives you some idea of the force applied by the wrench, even worst case, versus not having a clue on how much engine force was applied on startup. I also don't buy the logic that because your wrench might be out of calibration, it's ok to wing it. After all, the threads might not be clean and dry, or the wrench is sitting at 93 degrees instead of 90 and that's not close enough for government work. What? Like George McFly, you just couldn't take that kind of rejection so you'd better not even try? Throwing several well known mistakes of torquing procedure in after the fact doesn't justify winging it with hand tightening. I think you know that.

As to whether the torque is applied in stages, at the right angle so as not to distort the force applied, on clean dry threads, yes, that will change the torque applied. Taking a new part out of a warm stockroom and torquing it on a cold alternator shaft will change the torque applied. It says so in many rebuild manuals in several places. So, do it the right way. If tightening is required in stages, do it, if not, don't. That was hard, wasn't it? Even if every one of those procedures had been done incorrectly, it would be more accurate than what you recommended, which was engine torquing. Letting the engine do your torquing just isn't the best practice.

It really doesn't matter how much you know, how much you're entrusted with or what you think you can skate by with, if what you actually do is throw it on and walk away. When you you do this professionally, that's what really separates the pro's from the hacks.

But, I don't think you're a hack, regardless of what you posted and I'll tell you why. When the correct method was posted, a joke was added about lugnuts being hand tightened. I think that embarrassed you, based on your responses. That tells me you do care about the quality of the work you do and you have experience. If you didn't give a hoot, you wouldn't have bothered to respond. That to me is a good thing. But since we're not convincing each other of the virtues of torquing versus hand tightening, I'll end with that thought.

Good luck

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:49 am 
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So, I'm wrong and you are right because?
I have told you my credentials, What are yours?
Answer me this. After the decoupler is seated, and all the backlash is out of the threads, what happens when you tighten it further?
I am talking about YEARS of experience here, with understanding WHAT is happening! This type of fastener -large fastener diameter compared to stretch area- a quick blow will seat it better than a steady pull. We could argue that the screws that hold the dash panel on SHOULD be torqued (and if you have never tightened something before you may need to to keep from breaking something) but most of us, through experience, know how tight they need to be.
I work with some of the best trained mechanics (Millwrights) that there are and we KNOW how tight it takes to do the job, and when we need to use our torque wrenches or stretch gages. The point is it is all about stretch, not torque.
I will give you this, If you are not sure, torque it.
I will also admit that if you are not a professional mechanic it would be better to torque EVERYTHING, because you don't have the experience to KNOW and feel what is happening as you tighten something.
How about that for a compromise?

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:10 am 
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Another example. For a few years Dodge had the wrong torque value for the Cummins engine drain pan plug in their factory service manual. The people that went by the book where breaking the plugs. My first thought was "you got to be kidding me, why would anyone tighten a plug that tight?" I knew the value was wrong when I saw it. I also didn't ever use it because I know how tight to tighten the plug. Does that make me a hack and the ones that broke the plugs pro?
BTW, never had a plug fall out or strip in 40+ yrs ( yes, I was changing oil when I was 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:48 am 
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For crying out loud, somebody get a ruler so we can figure out who's is longer and put an end to this.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:59 am 
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retmil46 wrote:
For crying out loud, somebody get a ruler so we can figure out who's is longer and put an end to this.


You are so right. This ones done folks, can't say I haven't tried .. :?


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