Great Forum - Need some MAF/EGR/Turbo Advice

drudgery1971 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:27 pm

Thanks to everyone who makes this forum so active and useful. I know a diesel doesn't have spark plugs and that's about it so bear with me. Have a 2005 CRD with 75k miles on it - had all recalls completed (torque conveter, ball joints, etc. I Love this buggy and never really had any major issues until the past month or so related to MAF, EGR, Turbo boost.

Long story short ..... having really random loss of power - like turbo is not spooling up. Engine is running fine then when come to a stop sign for example, wait a couple seconds then go to take off and there is nothing there - no power - can get it up to 30 MPH but thats it - not more smoke or anything - just nothing there on the turbo. So I put it in neutral while rolling or pull over - let it idle for 3-5 seconds then step on it and its fine again. Seems like the engine controller isn't telling the turbo to start up?

Happens more frequently when conditions are cold (-5 to 25 F) but engine temp seems to have no bearing on it. It still does it when its just above freezing. Used diesel treatment a couple times just to make sure it wasn't bad go juice - didn't really help .

So Take it to dealer (its there now) - it throws codes for MAF sensor and Boost Pressure and the EGR. So they are going to replace the MAF sensor, assuming that will eliminate the boost pressure code and then "fix" the EGR but it sounds like the EGR can't really be fixed for good, not for real and I will end up having the same problem unless I do the SEGR modification? The dealership is pretty good about everything - Northeastern Ohio but I just wanted your guys take on what i should do long term because I really love the CRD and want it to last a couple hundred thousand k without putting a ton of money in it. Sorry for such a newbie question and rant but any thoughts or advice is appreciated. Thanks -- Andy
Salem Ohio

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:45 pm

Welcome to the forum. Sounds like a bad boost control solenoid. What were the codes? Perhaps unrelated, but have you changed the fuel filter recently?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:48 pm

Most dealers are not diesel smart because they work on gassers.
Pump up your primer, bleed out the air from the fuel filter head, push firmly on the primer pump and hold it down for several seconds. Then pull the heater plug on the drivers side, if the plug has fuel on it, your filter head is bad. If you have warranty, the dealer will replace it. If you don't have warranty, there are several better options than throwing money at another plastic fuel head.
When a common rail diesel gets just enough air instead of fuel in the fuel system a lot of the sensors get lied to and the ECM will throw false codes. An itsie wittisie tinie wieenie bubble won't do it, but a bigger bubble will. Between you and me, I would rather massage my Wife's feet than waste my time pontificating how big a bubble the fuel system can handle before it pukes making the engine run like crap, and have the ECM throw fake codes. Since I would rather massage my Wife's feet than find out first hand how big a bubble it takes, I installed a lift pump and my air leak problems have gone away.
Chrysler followed Bean Counter Engineering principals instead of reliable engineering principles.

Good luck

drudgery1971 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 20, 2009 9:54 pm

Thanks I really appreciate it. They are changing the fule filter tomorrow also - sorry I didn't mention that. It was changed about 20k ago? How often do most people change it?

I think the codes were P0299 - Boost Pressure Sensor
P0101 - MAF (Mass Air Flow) Sensor but all the guy said was the description. I will ask him to show me what the P numbers were specifically tomorrow.

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:27 pm

If you're having EGR issues as well, I would expect to see a P0401 to make the perfect trio.

The P0101 can come from a lot of things, usually some sort of contamination problem I've seen most often from a K&N air filter (oil passes through onto the MAF) or from water ingestion thru stock air box and/or filter. If they're fixing it, more power to them.

If you have a P0299 and that's the end of it, I'd suspect that one or both of the Charge Air Cooler (Intercooler) hoses (from turbo to CAC, and from CAC back to engine) have a split in them. If your vehicle is a 2005 and they're the original hoses, this is a very good possibility.The new hoses were redesigned to be stronger, so not an issue per se.

If you also have a P0401, then this is will be the cause of the P0299 (as well as its own issue). This is showing that over time some soot has built up on the EGR valve and it's sticking open somewhat. If this is the case, you're bleeding off the pressure from the exhaust manifold that would otherwise be driving the turbine of the turbocharger and thus producing boost. To cure this code, the dealer needs to either: remove the solenoid from the valve, allow the valve to soak in solvent, clean and reinstall; or, install a new EGR valve.

Based on your comments of "losing power randomly", I would suspect the EGR valve needs attention and the MAF needs replacing, and that should cure your ailments.

griznhoney · **Posted:** Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:44 pm

Sorry, I don't wanna intrude on your post, and I don't want to repeat other post I have made, but you are describing the same problems I am having... Here is what my tech described on my bill:

"Code P0096-MAP BARO sensor correlation. Technician tested MAP and baro sensors and read live data, When vechicle is having issue above the MAP sensor reads 35 inches of vacuum and doesn't change under acceleration. Removed the air intake tube and inspected the MAF sensor, MAF was found to be dirty, cleaned MAF sensor and retested. Still same symptoms, researched condition and found no information of concern, checked for TSB's, none found. Talked to manufacturer for any computer issues related to the symptoms, none found. Could resolve issue by turning off engine in drive, then restart in neutral. Vehicle would perform as normal. When performing normal, MAP vacuumm would rise under turbo boost. Technician believes the MAP is intermittently failing, but cannot prove the condition."

Hope one of us comes up with a solution! Good luck....

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:53 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

If you also have a P0401, then this is will be the cause of the P0299 (as well as its own issue). This is showing that over time some soot has built up on the EGR valve and it's sticking open somewhat. If this is the case, you're bleeding off the pressure from the exhaust manifold that would otherwise be driving the turbine of the turbocharger and thus producing boost.

I have read this statement from others also. Perhaps I am missing something unique to our CRDs, but how is it possible for charge air to bleed backwards through the EGR, seeing as how there should always be a ~2:1 pressure gradient?

drudgery1971 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 21, 2009 9:24 am

Thanks for input and suggestions - very useful. The shop said they would have it finished today and I will get the details on what they did and if it really fixed it (at least in the short term) later on this evening and will post what happens. The EGR code has been showing up on and off for a little while but until the MAF code Boost Pressure code showed up there were no performance issues (power loss).

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:37 pm

nursecosmo wrote:

MrMopar64 wrote:

If you also have a P0401, then this is will be the cause of the P0299 (as well as its own issue). This is showing that over time some soot has built up on the EGR valve and it's sticking open somewhat. If this is the case, you're bleeding off the pressure from the exhaust manifold that would otherwise be driving the turbine of the turbocharger and thus producing boost.

I have read this statement from others also. Perhaps I am missing something unique to our CRDs, but how is it possible for charge air to bleed backwards through the EGR, seeing as how there should always be a ~2:1 pressure gradient?

What I'm trying to say is that the pressure in the exhaust manifold drives the turbo. With the EGR open, the pressure in the exhaust manifold drops because it's now escaping through the EGR valve, this is why you'd have the close the vanes on the turbo to regain your boost. If the EGR valve is stuck open somewhat and the vanes aren't closed enough, then your boost will be too low and set the fault, and you'll have loss of performance not only from low boost but from low airflow that will cause the smoke limitation to be in effect.

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:29 pm

Low power and high vacuum at the Baro sensor would indicate plugged inlet path to the airbox, incl plugged air filter
- low power and high vacuum indication at the MAP would seem to indicate the FCV is not opening fully, which should also give EGR and MAF codes
- turbo problems due to EGR or EGR problems due to EGR would give low power but not high-vacuum
- bad pressure sensor could give high vacuum indication, if ECM input is scaled psia from 0

drudgery1971 · **Posted:** Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:30 pm

So here is the scoop so far after talking to the guy tonight: Again 75k miles and a 2005 - never any real problems before this loss of power:

Original fault codes were
P0299 - Boost Pressure Sensor
P0101 - MAF (Mass Air Flow) Sensor
P0401 - EGR - he didn't mention this one yesterday but someone here knew it was probably there too.

They changed replaced the following and I am including everything even though some is normal maintenance & unrelated:
1. MAF sensor replaced
2. Fuel Filter replaced
3. Air Filter replaced
4. Oil/Filter Changed
5. Differential - Transmission Fluid change
7. Radiator flushed
8. Front brakes replaced and turned rotors

Took it out for test drive and the P0401 came back on but they hadn't replaced the EGR yet wanted to wait until after the MAF sensor and everything else was done. Apparently they have them in stock (not surprising as often as I hear about them failing) and will change in the morning and hopefully won't have the CEL come back on. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Thanks for all the info guys.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Wed Jan 21, 2009 10:27 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

nursecosmo wrote:

MrMopar64 wrote:

If you also have a P0401, then this is will be the cause of the P0299 (as well as its own issue). This is showing that over time some soot has built up on the EGR valve and it's sticking open somewhat. If this is the case, you're bleeding off the pressure from the exhaust manifold that would otherwise be driving the turbine of the turbocharger and thus producing boost.

I have read this statement from others also. Perhaps I am missing something unique to our CRDs, but how is it possible for charge air to bleed backwards through the EGR, seeing as how there should always be a ~2:1 pressure gradient?

What I'm trying to say is that the pressure in the exhaust manifold drives the turbo. With the EGR open, the pressure in the exhaust manifold drops because it's now escaping through the EGR valve, this is why you'd have the close the vanes on the turbo to regain your boost. If the EGR valve is stuck open somewhat and the vanes aren't closed enough, then your boost will be too low and set the fault, and you'll have loss of performance not only from low boost but from low airflow that will cause the smoke limitation to be in effect.

Gotcha. Somehow I misread your post last night and thought that you were saying that the charge air was going backwards down the EGR tube into the exhaust manifold. When I just now reread it I see exactly what you were saying. I have heard many say that the boost will flow from the intake manifold into the exhaust manifold if the EGR is stuck. you were obviously not stating this. My bad.

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:22 am

drudgery1971 wrote:

Took it out for test drive and the P0401 came back on but they hadn't replaced the EGR yet wanted to wait until after the MAF sensor and everything else was done. Apparently they have them in stock (not surprising as often as I hear about them failing) and will change in the morning and hopefully won't have the CEL come back on. We'll see what happens tomorrow. Thanks for all the info guys.

Ugh. Scared what all of that cost. After this I'd do the ORM and EHM pronto.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:32 am

My 06 with 20k miles had a intermittent P0401 by it's self and noisey/stripped gears on the fcv. The dealer replaced both the EGR and EGR flow control valves and all has been well for over a month. It took the tech over a day to replace them

If this is on youe nickle hold on tight when you bend over :oops:

drudgery1971 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:14 am

Yeah - I hear you about the cost - I did buy the EasyCare warranty ($1,175.00) so its extended to 100,000k when I bought it new and really didn't want to at the time becasue I usually don't buy extended warranties but it probably just paid for itself in this one shot. For ALL the stuff I listed including new EGR he estimated it at about $900-$1000.00 and they are always pretty close. We'll see what happens when I actually see the bill. They also paid for 3 days of rental car. I don't know what it would cost without the extended warranty but certainly a lot more. Seems okay to me. What does a new EGR cost if without the extendo warranty? Labot cost has to be the killer.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:41 pm

drudgery1971 wrote:

Yeah - I hear you about the cost - I did buy the EasyCare warranty ($1,175.00) so its extended to 100,000k when I bought it new and really didn't want to at the time becasue I usually don't buy extended warranties but it probably just paid for itself in this one shot. For ALL the stuff I listed including new EGR he estimated it at about $900-$1000.00 and they are always pretty close. We'll see what happens when I actually see the bill. They also paid for 3 days of rental car. I don't know what it would cost without the extended warranty but certainly a lot more. Seems okay to me. What does a new EGR cost if without the extendo warranty? Labot cost has to be the killer.

I don't buy extended warranties either but did on the CRD. Mine is still under the factory warranty and for both the valves and labor was $725 but I'm assuming that's what DC (FC?) reimbursed the :roll:

drudgery1971 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:31 pm

Here we go!$%& :evil:

So they replaced the EGR today to fix the P0401 code (last fault showing) and once they do and test drive it the P0401 is good but the P0299 Boost Pressure CEL came back on.....!!!! So one more day - maybe. Any ideas?

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:47 pm

Did the symptoms return with the codes? One way to know whether or not it is the EGR or not is to disconnect the MAF plug. This will give you a code for the EGR but should not throw a p0299. It takes the EGR out of the picture altogether. If you are still getting a 0299 check the VGT actuator solenoid. When mine went bad I also got an EGR and low boost code before the P1250 showed up indicating a bad vacuum control circuit on the turbocharger. I don't know how the EGR and Vacuum solenoid are related to each other but one can trigger the other, possibly by a misinterpretation by the ECM.

drudgery1971 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:15 pm

No but that could be because the symptom only showed up once/twice over say 20 minutes of driving before I took it in. Sometimes it wouldn't do it at all.

Would a split even a small one in the CAC hose cause the P0299 issue. I thought I read somewhere it's a possible candidate? But then again it was off after they replaced the MAF sensor so you'd think it would be fine? I don't know....I knew this was going to harder than it seemed in the beginning. I'm going to speak with them at the end of the day. Thanks for your help. --

Andy

drudgery1971 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:03 pm

Update:
Whats been done - checked so far related to issue.
Original Codes Were:
P0299 - Boost Pressure Sensor
P0101 - MAF (Mass Air Flow) Sensor
P0401 - EGR

1. MAF sensor replaced
2. Fuel Filter replaced
3. Air Filter replaced

Test Drove it and EGR P0401 code remained so

4. EGR replaced

Test Drive - Everything perfectly fine - runs good no codes until they pulled it in bay and let it idle. After a few minutes inside at idle the P0299 Boost Pressure code showed up on the COMPUTER but did NOT trip the CEL inside the truck. They checked all the wiring and the CAC hoses.

To fix it (on their dime) they are replacing 2 more sensors and the control module I think its the Barometric Sensor and not sure what the other is but if its their cash I really don't care........ None of it makes any sense to me anymore - once they replace just about everything I will never really know what was wrong at this point it seems. Sorry but I am just frustrated.

Great Forum - Need some MAF/EGR/Turbo Advice

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