Myths Lies & the Truth about OTT Lifts

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:06 pm

Out of pure and utter curiosity, i took on a task of researching exactly why is it that OTT (lift spacers that mount between front strut and body mount) spacer lifts seem to destroy front struts on our beloved Liberty. I have called and talked to several suspension companies, had hour long conversations with several engineers, and came to a few conclusions. Some of what I am about to report might make people mad/upset and hope that we can have this as a civilized discussion and keep this thread from getting locked down.

Myth:
OTT spacers change how the suspension and front soilover shocks cycle and over extends them by changing the swing-arm travel therefore that's what leads to they're ultimate and utter/eventual failure.

Fact:
I thought this was true, but after talking with several engineers, asking them not about our KJ but about several other kinds of "coil over shock" designed suspensions on trucks like the Toyota Tacoma, 2004+ Ford F150, 2005+ Dodge Ram 1500, Nissan Titan, Toyota Tundra. All suspension companies said they have an extremely low occurrence of blown front struts on these vehicles when using their budget priced OTT Spacer kits. Revtek, Downey Offroad, CORE, Fabtech, Superlift, Skyjacker, Black Diamond, Rancho, Tuff Country, Rough Country, Daystar, Procomp, and Trailmaster were all contacted and asked about several random truck suspension systems above asking about any problems they've had out of the strut spacer kits that are offered. I never once asked about the Liberty. None of the shops contacted said anything about regular blown shocks on these trucks, and several like Revtek, Fabtech and Rancho even mentioned the contracts they have with many car dealers that sell brand new trucks with their lifts installed and come backed by the OEM warranty. When I went on to ask those manufactures (who I knew also market a Liberty KJ OTT), if there is any product they sell that does have a "reputation" for destroying front struts, only two were ever mentioned. Both are Chrysler products, and every manufacture gave the same quick response. 1st on their list was.............................are you ready for this???????????????? the JEEP LIBERTY KJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!! asked further if there was any other, and again every one mentioned the Dodge Ram 1500. Interviewed some more, they again all said that once the stock front struts were replaced with any after market strut regardless of brand (not reusing the stock dealer installed ones) nothing was ever heard from again out of the dissatisfied customers therefore assuming the problem was fixed. None mentioned if there was ever any followup to these complaints however. They all had an overwhelming tone in their voice about their disdain for Chrysler's quality control in regards to the shocks and struts they supply on the vehicles they produce.

So, what can we ascertain from this information? Maybe it's not an inherent design flaw of the OTT spacers, but the junk Jeep installed at the factory. Cause anytime you lift a vehicle above stock, no matter how small, you work it out of the intended design parameters and any true weak links will be weeded out fast regardless of the lift used.

tommudd · **Posted:** Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:20 pm

OK you have done a lot of research on the side of the business that wants to sell lifts regardless

Now take the time to ask people who have had blown stock shocks and even blown aftermarket shocks

The OTT style of lift does work well on some vehicles, Libertys not as well unles you install good bumpstops and even then there are better choices. I always like to hear from some of these companies, do you know how much R&D goes into some of these lifts? If its a Wrangler then tons a Liberty ...well it looks like it bolts on and looks good sitting in the parking lot so lets sell it. :shock:

Most of the above companies produce nothing for the Liberty , bet there is a reason why..did you ask?

Stock shocks are junk but they are not all of the problem. Just go through the tons of posts to see how many have ditched their OTTs for full spring kits. The kid I bought my ARB from went through 3 sets of front shocks before giving up, selling everything and putting the Liberty back to stock.
They (the manufacturers) never heard back from the consumer due to them giving up and replacing the OTT :wink:

Now this should get good. :lol:

Digger
PASS THE POPCORN

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:27 pm

HHMMM might want to ask the consumers and not the maker of the lifts,you'll get better answers.I've been turning wrenches for over 13 years and no OEM shocks/struts are worth a darn unless you are paying $60,000+ for the vehicle and then your not getting much better then anyways.You also got to look at some of those other BB OTT lifts for other vehicles,many do come with longer bumbstops.Then you got to look at the type of suspension setups the others have,some setups live better with a OTT lift then others. Then you got to look at the OEM struts/shocks are not ment for the added stress of OTT or even daystar type spacers.

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:34 pm

I agree, and unfortunately I was unable to get any customer contact lists to do my own follow up. And I understand privacy laws, so no sense in pushing the issue with them. The problem with this also, is getting ahold of those who are merely satisfied with what they purchased/installed, as most of what you find on forums, blogs, and boards are to the extreme ends of product opinion. You only find either extremely happy and those who border on bragging about their choice, or the extremely dissatisfied borderline insanely angry. Most customers obviously are in the middle but hard to find. Cause coming from a buisness standpoint, you don't offer for sale something that doesn't work and therefore won't. And when you take into account that Liberty KJ lifts are not in the least bit advertised and sometimes hard to find, but are offered as a choice. You might start to wonder why it is they still sell.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:40 pm

2mopar_diesels wrote:

I agree, and unfortunately I was unable to get any customer contact lists to do my own follow up. And I understand privacy laws, so no sense in pushing the issue with them. The problem with this also, is getting ahold of those who are merely satisfied with what they purchased/installed, as most of what you find on forums, blogs, and boards are to the extreme ends of product opinion. You only find either extremely happy and those who border on bragging about their choice, or the extremely dissatisfied borderline insanely angry. Most customers obviously are in the middle but hard to find. Cause coming from a buisness standpoint, you don't offer for sale something that doesn't work and therefore won't. And when you take into account that Liberty KJ lifts are not in the least bit advertised and sometimes hard to find, but are offered as a choice. You might start to wonder why it is they still sell.

You also got to think that most that lift a vehicle like a KJ type suspension(IFS) will never leave the pavement and the owner wouldn't have a clue if they blew a shock or not or let alone change there own tire if it went flat.Those type of people purchase about 90% of these lifts(cheap) to just "look cool" and have no plan on ever leaving the pavement,most of these people also drive those pickups that you never hear problems about since they have no clue they have a problem.

Guest · **Posted:** Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:49 pm

I wish I had the free time required to pursue this sort of research.

Wanna trade jobs?

InCommando · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:06 am

Aren't there different types of spacers involved here? To stick to one manufacturer, there is the OTT that has a horrible rep, but the Combo lift is OK for what it is. & a small spacer on top of OME springs seems fine.

Maybe the people buying the cheap lifts are not springing for bumpstops, as stated above? Or maybe those that are getting the cheap lifts are using the junk stock front shocks?

I can tell you this: I am very impressed with the ride and handling of my KJ with the OME/Rancho combo.

tommudd · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:22 am

Also after rereading again,
If the companys KNOW and admitted to you that the stock shocks do not hold up with their OTT type of lift, why continue to market them without some type of warning that you MUST replace the stock shocks with aftermarket ones? Seems resonable to me :roll:

Of course why would you lift one with out upgrading :shock:

but thats up to the consumer I guess.

So how do you contact 13 different companies and talk to someone who actually knows enough about each type of lift and how it responds to each individual vehicle?
Must of taken months :?:

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:50 am

tommudd wrote:

Also after rereading again,
If the companys KNOW and admitted to you that the stock shocks do not hold up with their OTT type of lift, why continue to market them without some type of warning that you MUST replace the stock shocks with aftermarket ones? Seems resonable to me :roll:

Of course why would you lift one with out upgrading :shock:

but thats up to the consumer I guess.

So how do you contact 13 different companies and talk to someone who actually knows enough about each type of lift and how it responds to each individual vehicle?
Must of taken months :?:

Actually about a week or so. If your persistent, nice, persuasive, and just making general inquiries and are genuinely interested in what they have to offer, it's amazing the quick response you can get. All but Rancho and Procomp in fact was either a short simple wait on hold (ok, some were nearly 30min) by refusing to leave a message, or called me back the same day. Had to call Rancho a few time over a couple days before they finally returned my voice mails, and Procomp I wound up just using email before I got a call from one of their techs.

And my guess to the shock thing is the same as TJKJ's. Most are happy with what they have and probably have no clue if their struts are blown anyway. The people here and on most forums are "enthusiasts" and therefore as our nature more in tune with what makes our vehicles "tick" so to speak.

LIV42DY · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:56 am

Tell you what, I love to know how he was able to talk to Engineers, my Father was an Engineer for Land Rover and I recall him telling me that at times people doing research would attempt to contact him and at times no response was sent what so ever instead a someone else would take care of it. (Not an Engineer) I must say he did do a lot of reseach. Interesting!

tommudd · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:02 am

LIV42DY wrote:

Tell you what, I love to know how he was able to talk to Engineers, my Father was an Engineer for Land Rover and I recall him telling me that at times people doing research would attempt to contact him and at times no response was sent what so ever instead a someone else would take care of it. (Not an Engineer) I must say he did do a lot of reseach. Interesting!

Interesting for sure :wink:

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:04 am

LIV42DY wrote:

Tell you what, I love to know how he was able to talk to Engineers, my Father was an Engineer for Land Rover and I recall him telling me that at times people doing research would attempt to contact him and at times no response was sent what so ever instead a someone else would take care of it. (Not an Engineer) I must say he did do a lot of reseach. Interesting!

And your probably right. I'm sure most of the people I talked to were likely tech advisers or something and not the actual engineers.

LibertyFever · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:15 am

Thanks for taking the time to write this posting 2mopar_diesels. I chose to install an OTT spacer lift on my Libby because I hadn't planned to wheel it all that hard however my experience with the lift has me wishing I had bought a proper lift.

I too am experiencing frequent failure of the stock front struts. I'm about to toss away the spacers and replace them with a pair of proper Rancho struts and a pair of new longer coils.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:36 am

FYI - if you'd like customer data - search LOST
you will get several folks who tried and killed struts (I still think the record is 1 weekend)

you will also get the couple of folks who made it work - by adding bumpstops
(except for the guy who's offroad driving was on the beach - he didn't have any problems)

but we can only advise - it's your Jeep - it's your choice

LIV42DY · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:43 pm

Anyway, I decider to visit the RRO website, here is the best part of the whole write up on the OTT lift, read below.

Please note on all Jeep Liberty lifts (no matter what company): Installation of any lift on the market for the Liberty causes the upper A-arm to sit at a lower position. In about 5% of installations in lifting a Liberty, there has been reports of slight contact between the arm and the spring. This happens on all suspension lifts on the market by every manufacturer (except for the Rockfather). The contact is easy to fix by doing a slight bit of clearancing on the arm itself with something like a Dremel tool or die grinder. Most vehicles will not have to worry about this issue and our Rockfather system eliminates this possibility altogether.

Now think about it , what the hell can you grind with a Dremel Tool? :oops:

Oh and by the way, they came out with replacement Roof rails.. RL's are still the best

Jeepjeepster · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:36 pm

Ive not read everything so someone may of already said this.

If the shock bottoms out before the upper control arm hits the bump stop then something must break. The shock, no matter what brand or how good, is NOT made to keep the suspension from bottoming out. Its just that simple.

I wish I had saved this picture but awhile back some took the spring out and put the shock back in. They compressed the suspension and showed that the shock cleared bottomed out long before the bump stop bottomed out.

With that, you can make the OTT lift work. You would need to get extended bumpstops so that the bumpstop took the hit before the shock did. You would also need to get a set of AL's arms so the boot would not get torn on the stock upper A-arm when the suspension was at full droop.

Guest · **Posted:** Sun Jan 25, 2009 10:38 pm

LIV42DY wrote:

Anyway, I decider to visit the RRO website, here is the best part of the whole write up on the OTT lift, read below.

Please note on all Jeep Liberty lifts (no matter what company): Installation of any lift on the market for the Liberty causes the upper A-arm to sit at a lower position. In about 5% of installations in lifting a Liberty, there has been reports of slight contact between the arm and the spring. This happens on all suspension lifts on the market by every manufacturer (except for the Rockfather). The contact is easy to fix by doing a slight bit of clearancing on the arm itself with something like a Dremel tool or die grinder. Most vehicles will not have to worry about this issue and our Rockfather system eliminates this possibility altogether.

Now think about it , what the hell can you grind with a Dremel Tool? :oops:

Oh and by the way, they came out with replacement Roof rails.. RL's are still the best

They're telling you to grind a structural component of your suspension? :shock:

Prospect62 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 26, 2009 9:34 am

2mopar_diesels I applaud you for your efforts...

That being said, I think we here at LOST have dissected and argued and fought and hashed and re-hashed the OTT issue into a pulp over the last few years. We know OTT lifts are bad for our Jeep KJ's and after much trial, error and discussion, we know exactly why and it was spelled out by Jeepjeester a few posts back.

The OTT spacer, by eliminating 2.5" of strut travel, causes the strut to bottom out long before the spring does and over time, that destroys the strut.

As you surmise, the OTT lift in and of itself may work just fine on some vehicles, but on the KJ, it simply does not. I don't think you can really blame Chrysler for putting subpar struts in the KJ or call their engineering into question, because in stock form, these designs and products are more than adequate.

You can talk to engineers from companies that build and market lift kits until you're blue in the face...but you'll not get honest or real world information from anyone but a KJ owner who has been there, done that. Unfortunately, many of us have.

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:35 am

And therefore thats why I wanted to post this info. For people to not summarily dismiss what for their needs could work. I simply get a little irritated at the response someone new gets when they mention X-brand's lift and members here give an automated near angry response of "junk" "trash" etc. and tell the poster they are dumb for not searching when asked why it is so that said lift is worthless. Instead, as much as we all hate or get irritated at newbie questions, we should give guidance and offer solutions or fixes to those who may allready have these lifts. When someone posts they want, or have already bought say a RRO, Teraflex, or Rusty's kit, instead of telling them they wasted they're money and they are stupid for doing or thinking so, we should offer our help.

Cause when it was I who went searching for lift advice, don't you know I received more negative responses and outright hate filled oppinions than useful info. And when I used the search function for my research, It was extremely hard to find real, good to honest helpful information. All lift threads went pretty much like this (somewhat paraphrased of course) with just a couple of rare exceptions:

(OP--"Hey, I'm looking at X-brand of lift. How does it work, anything I need to know, really just want to fit bigger tires, don't do much offroad" etc.)
(response--Junk piece of crap, won't give one to my worst enemy. OME OME OME OME or, at the very least, get a full spring kit don't buy anything else etc. etc.)

(OP--why is that what is wrong with the lift I want to buy to save money. I don't have $600-$800 to spend)
(response--believe us, we are the experts,if you are looking to save money, you bought the wrong vehicle, in the wrong sport and shouldn't lift it in the 1st place) (if you really want to know, just use the search function here and you will find everything you need to know)

Now, looking at it this way, can't you guys see how inconsiderate it can seem to those who are just wanting to learn more about their Liberty's??? Most will not get as involved and research into the "reasons" as I have. I don't like the "just because, trust us" answer. I want to know the mechanics behind it all and why.

Sport · **Posted:** Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:15 pm

One word... bumpstops. End of discussion.

Myths Lies & the Truth about OTT Lifts

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