Summer '09-Diesel price may drop below gasoline

blake1827 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:10 pm

http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKN1028062120090211 Let's hope this happens here in the states. Anyone paying less for #2 then RUG right now? I know the gap has been shrinking again.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:34 pm

Here, the gap is 45 cent right now. It has been as high as 60 cents.

bdptp73 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

BVCRD wrote:

Here, the gap is 45 cent right now. It has been as high as 60 cents.

Here the price at one station RUG and ULSD are both $1.99

kjfishman · **Posted:** Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:42 pm

11 cents give or take around St. Louis. That would be great if diesel was less than RUG. At least it's cheaper than 93 octane, that our other car requires (we tried running 87 octane but economey and power suffer)

truckbouy2 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:04 pm

About 20 centavos here in the banana belt....BUT, we get all our juice from Canada and the hurricane season in Canada begins soon....AND you know how those Canadian hurricanes can RAISE prices. :wink:

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:35 pm

Canadian hurricanes... Wait, whut?

It would be VERY nice if the pirates of the oil markets quit screwing with the prices for a while, people would actually see that YEA, diesel is SUPPOSED to be cheaper than gas, it's easier to make!

vtdog · **Joined:** Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:27 am **Posts:** 640

Down to 25% spread here from alltime high of 50% ande 40% last month. #2 home fuel down to 2.05/gal

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:53 pm

geordi wrote:

Canadian hurricanes... Wait, whut?

It would be VERY nice if the pirates of the oil markets quit screwing with the prices for a while, people would actually see that YEA, diesel is SUPPOSED to be cheaper than gas, it's easier to make!

Canadian hurricanes happen about as often as getting a Flight Attendant under the age of 50 on United or Northwest, rare but it does happen.

In fact the last time I had a Flight Attendant under fifty on United or Northwest, was right after a Hurricane that hit Nova Scotia :lol:

Cowcatcher · **Posted:** Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:30 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

Canadian hurricanes happen about as often as getting a Flight Attendant under the age of 50 on United or Northwest, rare but it does happen.

In fact the last time I had a Flight Attendant under fifty on United or Northwest, was right after a Hurricane that hit Nova Scotia :lol:

You know, I flew to Pheonix and back a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking that the attendants used to be about my age and always met pretty strick guidelines with respect to whether or not they would make the floor panels warp. They are more than often still my age but 40 years have passed and often they would need to pay for two seats if they flew on their own airline. Ah well, on the age thing, some of them must have to start retiring. Unless of course their 401K has shunk to a 101K like mine.

truckbouy2 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:17 am

Once again...Here in the Banana Belt we get our juice from Canada. We don't get it from the south. The last hurricane that hit the USA caused our prices here in the Banana Belt Republic of Minnesota to SKY ROCKET and reason given was......Hurricane.
I wouldn't be tooooooooooo quick to state there are no hurricanes in Canada.... :shock:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:57 am

Yep, diesel back around 2 bucks a gallon is nice. For the interview I did in Crystal River FL, it was only 600 miles to drive down - cost me less than $60 in diesel fuel, a little over a full tank - they paid for 250 miles @ 55 cents/mile - difference paid for two extra nights at the hotel and the chance to check out/enjoy the area - and I had a 300 mile head start over what I normally had to travel to get to the Austin/San Antonio area for the UTSA appointment, straight out I-10.

Recruiter was happy - she only had to deal with making hotel reservations - and I didn't have to deal with flying into Tampa at zero-dark-30 the night before the interview and trying to get a rental car on Super Bowl weekend.

BTW, from what I heard from the locals the Super Bowl turned out to be a bust for Tampa - well over 1000 tickets went unsold, and the hotels still had all manner of vacancies. If that isn't an indicator of how bad the economy is, when probably for the first time in it's history they weren't able to sell out the Super Bowl. :shock:

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Feb 14, 2009 11:57 am

Cowcatcher wrote:

You know, I flew to Pheonix and back a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking that the attendants used to be about my age and always met pretty strick guidelines with respect to whether or not they would make the floor panels warp. They are more than often still my age but 40 years have passed and often they would need to pay for two seats if they flew on their own airline. Ah well, on the age thing, some of them must have to start retiring. Unless of course their 401K has shunk to a 101K like mine.

What is sad is that when you have a 85 lb Flight Attendant with size Zero Hips that can't help but crash her hips into every man's shoulder as she walks by. Yet the one that looks like she needs two seats can go down the aisle with out crashing her hips into you.
At least Southwest hires Flight Attendants who can do their job.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:37 pm

geordi wrote:

It would be VERY nice if the pirates of the oil markets quit screwing with the prices for a while, people would actually see that YEA, diesel is SUPPOSED to be cheaper than gas, it's easier to make!

As ULSD, diesel is no longer easier to make than gas. Add enormous (but falling) demand for diesel in Europe, China, and India, and guess what? The price of diesel becomes higher. There isn't a tinfoil hat explanation for everything.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:38 pm

CATCRD wrote:

As ULSD, diesel is no longer easier to make than gas. Add enormous (but falling) demand for diesel in Europe, China, and India, and guess what? The price of diesel becomes higher. There isn't a tinfoil hat explanation for everything.

Yeah, I read that contamination is also an issue with ULSD. They can no longer use tanks to transport ULSD that have previously been used for heating oil or colored diesel for example thus creating additional storage and transportation costs.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:26 am

I had read somewhere, maybe this forum, that offroad diesel was also going to be ultra low sulfur in a couple of years. If they follow through on that, it might give us a break in the future in regards to the cost of the supply chain stuff and the refiners might see some cost savings since they won't be supporting two different manufacturing streams.

As far as the difficulty to make ULSD, I think all they do is hydrotreat longer/harder/hotter. Because that one step requires more energy and probably time, we see the higher cost. I don't think they necessarily added a bunch of extra processing steps, but they probably had to retrofit some of their units.

We'll see, I look forward to the price coming down as well. Right now, ULSD goes for $2.05 in the middle of MI while RUG is $1.90.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:16 pm

They take Hydrogen gas and bubble it through the raw diesel fuel under pressure. That strips the sulfur and turns it into Hydrogen Sulfide. Hydrogen Sulfide is then processed into elemental sulfur via the Claus Process (they want patent royalties and to sell books I won't pay for). To get the Hydrogen gas they crack natural gas into CO2 and Hydrogen.

Sulfur has been removed from gasoline for many years. I suspect they use a similar or same process on gasoline.

Gasoline requires a max of 30PPM, twice as high as Diesel. www.drivesavvy.com/docs/FAQ1.pdf

This may be one factor as to why they stiff us more at the pump.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:43 pm

I don't buy the "more difficult to make" rationale. Check out what the DOE and EIA have to say on the subject - they were only making pennies on the gallon for RUG, but were easily clearing 50 cents or more per gallon for ULSD #2.

The reason given for the recent spike in RUG was that they weren't selling enough volume and inventory was piling up, so they had to raise prices to recover their refining costs.

First, oil is expensive, inventories are low, we're told we're using too much, so they have to raise prices. Now, oil is cheap, inventories are thru the roof, we're told we're using too little, so they have to raise prices again.

Bottom line, people - oil companies are multinational for-profit businesses, as such they're going to act in their own self-interest to maximize profit, and care about the economy and this country only to the extent that it affects their bottom line. That's the basic nature of the beast, before you throw any human factors or motivations into the equation.

calcrd · **Posted:** Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:51 pm

check out the website

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

I am buying diesel in San Mateo, CA for 2.19 in a cash only station

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:54 pm

...just to add to warp2diesel's chemistry lesson....

About 10 years ago early in my college career, I was a co-op employee at a refinery pilot plant for the former Ashland Petroleum. The project at the time making research variety of base lubes for Valvoline to experiment with for blending into motor oils. The final step before wax removal was hydrotreating. I recall that the sulfur level had to be under something like 5 ppm if I'm remembering correctly. Among the numerous reasons for wanting sulfur low, one I was given that it affected the viscosity profile and its consistency.

Their pilot plant set-up was a continuous reactor. The feed went into a column packed with catalyst and was heated to 450 deg F. Hydrogen was fed in at 1000 psi. I don't know what they specifically did for gasoline and diesel, but I'll hazard a guess that it's just some variant of this. I imagine all the refiners did to meet the sulfur mandate was to alter temperatures, pressures, feed rates, and maybe the catalyst too.

While hydrotreating is aimed at sulfur removal, the process also removes unsaturation (can help shelf life) and takes out a small portion of the aromatic compounds.

On the occasion of actually going down to the refinery, I remember there being mounds of elemental sulfur piled everywhere. I think they pretty much have to "give it away" since there isn't a huge market for it outside of tires or conversion into sulfuric acid.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:06 pm

kdlewis1975 wrote:

...just to add to warp2diesel's chemistry lesson....

About 10 years ago early in my college career, I was a co-op employee at a refinery pilot plant for the former Ashland Petroleum. The project at the time making research variety of base lubes for Valvoline to experiment with for blending into motor oils. The final step before wax removal was hydrotreating. I recall that the sulfur level had to be under something like 5 ppm if I'm remembering correctly. Among the numerous reasons for wanting sulfur low, one I was given that it affected the viscosity profile and its consistency.

Their pilot plant set-up was a continuous reactor. The feed went into a column packed with catalyst and was heated to 450 deg F. Hydrogen was fed in at 1000 psi. I don't know what they specifically did for gasoline and diesel, but I'll hazard a guess that it's just some variant of this. I imagine all the refiners did to meet the sulfur mandate was to alter temperatures, pressures, feed rates, and maybe the catalyst too.

While hydrotreating is aimed at sulfur removal, the process also removes unsaturation (can help shelf life) and takes out a small portion of the aromatic compounds.

On the occasion of actually going down to the refinery, I remember there being mounds of elemental sulfur piled everywhere. I think they pretty much have to "give it away" since there isn't a huge market for it outside of tires or conversion into sulfuric acid.

It is amazing how many elements and compounds are totally essential for Human, Animal, and Plant Life, but are considered pollutants. Pull the Sulfur out of Diesel, Gasoline, Coal Exhaust so we can spread it on our crop land so the plants grow right and the livestock that eat them don't get sick and die. I can see some of the motivation behind the pharmaceutical industry to keep us a little sick so they can sell their solutions even when the solutions nature provides are cheaper. For me, I eat 2 oz of Almonds or Walnuts or Pistachios or Pecans every day instead of taking Zocor. They taste better too.
I must hand it to Bosch for being honest about why we need the low sulfur fuel, it attacks the catalyst, not because of some health issue. I am sure CARB would argue that point.

Summer '09-Diesel price may drop below gasoline

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