Turbo installed... NOW what's the matter?

UFO · **Posted:** Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:46 pm

onthehunt wrote:

I was gonna mention that but I didn't need the additional grief. Glad you did. It will be tough to prove. Another theory is the oil seal went on the turbo and the engine simply ran out of oil. Hope you got your flame suit on.

Yeah, that's about all I can think of too. Hard for me to believe though if you never ran out of oil -- I popped an oil cooler hose on my Mercedes at -10F one evening and drove nearly a half a mile with zero oil pressure. It stalled when I stopped. I refilled it after patching the cooler hose; I cranked it over forever before it started again it was so dry, but it still runs fine. it just has a lot more trouble starting in the cold. Below 30F it needs a block heater. No bearing or oil pressure problems at all.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:31 pm

If you have haven't run Bio for 20K miles - then I'll put that in the 'beautiful theory shot down by an ugly fact' category.

The turbo oil line and running out of oil - makes a lot more sense.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:42 pm

Ok, here's the closeups of the carnage known as Jeep.

Again, I leave it to your capable hands to tell me what I'm looking at, since the inside of an oil pan is somewhat magic for me.

Ouchie. That had to hurt.

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:13 pm

So, it looks to me that the rod is still intact and you just, in fact, lost a bolt that came shooting thru the pan. If you have a boroscope or have a friend with one, take a peak at the other side of the rod to make sure that bolt is there. Since you're going to have to pull the pan to replace it, put 2 new bolts in the rod and keep on truckin'.

gmctd · **Posted:** Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:26 pm

Aren't the rod cap bolts installed from the piston side of the rod, screwing into the cap?

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Feb 19, 2009 11:38 pm

buh... Wait, whut? ??????

What about all that shrapnel on the skid plate? There is a LOT of crap there, it couldn't have all come from the pan, could it? The hole is smaller than the volume of debris...?

I do actually have a boroscope, I've got one of those Ridgid hole-probes that they sell with the little fiber optic camera thingie on it. I'm not too crazy about putting it near all that happy greasy oil , especially since I have to drop the pan to do anything anyway... Like replace the pan.

I'm gonna work on pulling the pan this weekend, and we shall see. More pics to come in the future, but this gives me some hope. It was looking kinda bleak there for a while, but why did this happen? Aren't those bolts supposed to be REALLY torqued down? They are designed to spin round-and-round all the time and not come out...

Call me a pessimist, but I'm still not convinced this is fixed so easy. The amount of debris bothers me.

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:17 am

Not much to go on yet, but wag = looks like some thing to do with the balance-shaft assembly(s), or one of the aluminum mains-support castings, or the oil pump, or the vacuum pump, or...................

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:23 am

Or I won't know my arse from my elbow until I get the pan down and bathe in some more 15w40, right?

If I do have to get an engine, would you help me install it? I can probably only afford beer for payment tho... Maybe some great steaks, and hot dogs for Diesel. :lol:

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:41 am

Me, three till that pan comes off - the melee sounds good - it's the commute that worries me....................

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:52 am

gmctd wrote:

Aren't the rod cap bolts installed from the piston side of the rod, screwing into the cap?

No, on this engine, the bolts go thru the cap and thread into the con rod. However, in the pictures it appears as though the threaded portion is facing down...that might not be such a good sign.

The balance shafts are under 2 and 3, and this is #1 that blew apart, so I doubt any b.s. carnage.

There is the probability that when the turbo blew, most of the volume flow went that direction since it was the path of least resistance. If the oil flow thru the under-piston cooling jets went away (they have a check-valve in them), the piston could have cracked, but it's hard to say. As many as I've blown up personally, I've not seen the aluminum main supports give way, but anything is possible. In the picture it does look like one of the spiral locks for the piston pin since they're full floating is on the skid, so, take it for what you will.

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:03 am

Worser and worser, if that is the piston end of that rod hanging down, and all from just a little tick...tick...tick..................

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:00 am

gmctd wrote:

Me, three till that pan comes off - the melee sounds good - it's the commute that worries me....................

Well, more of a serious question:

Would you be able to help swap the motor if I brought the Jeep to you?

It would be a 1200 mile drag, but I don't really know any shops here in Savannah, and frankly... The thought of the work getting done by people that KNOW these cars makes me feel a lot better. And you can help me figure out the gauge setups too, so this NEVER happens again.

Who knows, this might become a rebuild candidate after it's out of the car. Right now, the consensus in my family is the sheer amount of shrapnel on the skid plate smells strongly of detonated piston and connecting rod. They (and I) are a bit hesitant about doing any kind of attempt at a repair b/c of the possibility of trash being spread throughout the oil galleries.

I'm just thinking about options at this point, but it looks like I'm looking for an entire engine. Once this one is out, MAYBE it can be flushed and rebuilt.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:16 am

Looks like the piston shattered and it dropped the con rod. Check the oil pump for metal after removing engine. Its not as bad as it seems. You could have a hole in the block.

tonycrd · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:24 am

Bummer...

Seems like in the debris there are chunks of the rod and piston rings...

First time I see a piston explode, then rotate 180º and ram through the sump though....

My theory: the rod broke first. The tick-a-tick you heared was the piston pin/ small end bearing on the rod. Maybe caused by as was stated earlier the sprayers giving up.

The good news: The VM has loose sleeves so it can be rebuild fairly easy...

AND:

I would like to thank you guys for no wise stupid remarks or flaming or whatever, we had enough crap in the general section already.

What we are doing here is what LOST should be all about, helping other Jeepers out!

Thanks!

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:31 am

Not a bad idea, Geordi, and I do appreciate your confidence, but I am not prepared to take on this big a task, at this time - if this had happened a year from now I would have complete indoor facilities to do this sort of thing (which is my intent), but, as of right now, we haven't even finalized on the property - it's coming, tho - just seems interminable - hope I live that long.............

I think there prolly won't be much detritus in the oiling system due to the suddenness of the event - could be as 'simple' as pulling the head, replacing a scored cylinder-liner sleeve, piston\rings, rod\bearing, oil pan, and head gasket, timing belt - would definitely involve pulling the engine, due to the engine\suspension cradle preventing dropping the oil pan - there is absolutely no room in the drivetrain tunnel to allow raising the engine - Mr MoService had even crushed the transmission harness between the 545RFE and the upper tunnel sheetmetal in this KJ when they warranty-replaced the torque convertor in Apr07 - bummer...............

JeepinJarhead03 · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:18 pm

kinda a side question on those sleeves, is the crd one of those sleeved engines where ya pull the old sleeve, freeze the new ones for a bit and tap them in with a block of wood and a hammer or is there some new fangled way of doing it

only sleeved diesels i've messed with were IH farm tractor engines so i apologize in advance if my question is kind of ignorant

gmctd · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:46 pm

Dunno fer sure, but freezeit'n'poundit is the only method I'm is, as a confirmed shade-tree fixer, aware of

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:08 pm

geordi wrote:

I do actually have a boroscope, I've got one of those Ridgid hole-probes that they sell with the little fiber optic camera thingie on it. I'm not too crazy about putting it near all that happy greasy oil , especially since I have to drop the pan to do anything anyway... Like replace the pan.

I know the boroscopes are expensive, but can you not stretch some plastic warp over the camera end so it won't distort the picture too much and then wrap the rest of it in plastic warp? Kinda like a boroscope condom? At least you might be able to get a peak at the damage without messing up your scope. Just an idea.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:34 pm

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The liner puller/installer. They also make a protrusion gauge.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:41 pm

....like the crank (after being repaired), connecting rods, or the balancer, have them magnifluxed to check for cracks. Borescopes are nice, but when it is torn down, you will know the whole truth. For cast Iron parts one option is a Powder Torch.
We can come up with a lot of tricks that can save some money, but most of them would be more suited to a antique restoration forum.

You may get away with having your crank repaired, replace the one piston, sleeve and connecting rod and be back in business. The hole in the pan can be welded up by any good welder that has equipment for welding aluminum.

The sleeve puller for wet sleeves shown by onthehunt is not that hard to use unlike the ones used for dry sleeves. In fact, one time I made one I still have with ready rod, angle iron, and a steel plate I turned in my lathe. You can use a straight edge and feeler gauge set instead of a protrusion gauge if you are care full, it just takes more skill.

For dry sleeve engines with a stuck sleeve one trick is to lay the block on its side and weld a bead with a MIG on the inside of the cylinder wall. The sleeve will shrink and sometimes you can pull it out with your hand when it cools down.

For Parent bore engines like Cummins 5.9 or a Mercedes you have the machine shop install service sleeves and bore them out to spec.

What counts is the bottom line and how long you are down. There are many ways to skin a cat.

Turbo installed... NOW what's the matter?

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