CCV Adsorbent idea?

linewarbr · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:41 pm

Has anyone examined the possibility of installing an oil adsorbent filter between the CCV puck and the intake tract? The theory being that the filter would collect the oil (without becoming saturated or clogging, as it is adsorbent) and let it drip back into the crankcase while allowing the gases in the crankcase to move through into the intake for combustion?

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:57 pm

You're describing the Provent - the synthetic filter absorbs the oil, lets it drip - crankcase or ground is your choice, but it adheres to the ground (and other stuff on the underside of your KJ) quite nastily.............

linewarbr · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 3:25 pm

No, I'm talking about something that fits within the present line between the CCV and the intake, or something that adds only a small amount of plumbing rather than the Provent. Think "in-line fuel filter".

BVCRD · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:20 pm

My bet is if you could find something like that or fabricate it, it would readily clog up and cause all sorts of issues. We need NASA.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:02 pm

That's the whole idea. The in-line filter wouldn't clog because it wouldn't actually absorb the oil, it would repel it. The oil, being unable to pass the filter, would be forced back into the crankcase without blocking the gases from the crankcase going into the intake to be combusted.

Maybe it would take NASA to find the correct filter media; I'm thinking something fine enough to where oil mist couldn't pass through but not so fine that it would restrict the flow of gases, and made out of an adsorbent material to repel the oil, causing it to collect back into droplets and flow back to the crankcase. Some hose fittings and clamps could provide the housing, but it would have to be angled to allow the oil to fall back into the crankcase.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:24 pm

Cr@p does that type of material even exist? I curse my lack of knowledge!

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:27 pm

Early engines had breathers that tried to block the vapor and let it accumulate onto steel wool and then in theory, it drained back into the sump. Various systems have been tried to place the separation into the valve cover, side of engine block,or other and then out into the atmosphere.
With Gasoline engines first what ever preceded CARB, forced Car manufactures to adopt Positive crankcase Ventilation and later it became a Federal requirement. Later on over the road Diesels were required to do the same. On a Turbo Diesel the only way to get it to work is to suck it into the Turbo.
Since you can not defy the Very Unforgiving Laws of Physics, in order to separate the oil vapor and get it to accumulate and drain out, you need enough media, be it a filter, steel wool, poly fill, corn cobs, wood chips, hair, or what ever. Try to force too much through too much media and it will clog up causing your crank case pressure to go too high and blow out the seals. Sizing is the dilemma more than any choice of configuration. For example, put a big enough inline fuel filter on the crank case ventilation, it will work.
Provent has a system that works which just hooks up. My self and others have made our own out of 2" PVC pipe and 3/4" barbed fittings that work well.

The rule of thumb is Too Big or right size is OK, too small, it will clog up and you blow out your seals and dump your oil.
The Laws of Physics are not forgiving.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:53 pm

True dat on the laws of physics. One of the reasons I threw the idea on the forum is that I figured someone on here was bound to have considered this before, it just seemed to obvious. The idea of this even being a filter is somewhat erroneous; it would only be a filter in the sense that it would allow crankcase gases through but filter out the oil mist. At issue is a filter media that would not collect or aBsorb the oil, it would have to be lipophobic - oil repellent, so as to not clog.

I sent an email to a chemist I know asking him if he knew of any companies that manufacture an oil-aDsorbent, lipophobic filter media. I will go from there.

But I am definitely NOT blowing the seals on my CRD. . .

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:04 pm

gmctd wrote:

You're describing the Provent - the synthetic filter absorbs the oil, lets it drip - crankcase or ground is your choice, but it adheres to the ground (and other stuff on the underside of your KJ) quite nastily.............

x2

- the Provent is a small thin filter that the oil vapor condenses on - it then drains to the bottom - either to the crankcase if you've drilled it - or a trap if you haven't. The filter doesn't really wear - it's a condensation trap and it's got a pressure relief built in.

gmctd · **Posted:** Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:26 pm

Correct, and my bad - the oil adheres to the syn media, then is hurled out via centrifugal force, or drips off, in the large chamber, where other media, such as cotton-based, would absorb and retain the oil, soon plugging the interstices

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:12 am

So far no one has mentioned that the moisture and oil laden vapor will freeze in the winter :shock:

The filter on my Pro-Vent also clogged with sludge and is now sitting on the shelf taking up valuable space :lol:

But since the blow by on my engine is now substacially less then it originally was I might clean the provent and put it back on. I've not checked my MAP sensor recently but I did look inside of the CAC hose from the turbo to the intercooler and was pleasently supprised at what I saw :lol:

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:42 am

Clean it with Diesel fuel or paint thinner (not lacquer thinner!!), then hot soapy water, flush, reassemble, and yer good to go........................

BVCRD · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:50 am

Joe Romas wrote:

So far no one has mentioned that the moisture and oil laden vapor will freeze in the winter :shock:

The filter on my Pro-Vent also clogged with sludge and is now sitting on the shelf taking up valuable space :lol:

But since the blow by on my engine is now substacially less then it originally was I might clean the provent and put it back on. I've not checked my MAP sensor recently but I did look inside of the CAC hose from the turbo to the intercooler and was pleasently supprised at what I saw :lol:

I'm going back a couple years here, but I think Navy talked about that posibility with his EHM running into a coke bottle. Some who just let the EHM dangle under the engine found that the mist did indeed freeze. One guy said his froze on the way home, then parked in a heated garage and it froze back the next day. A freeze and thaw cycle. He just kept a pan on the floor to catch the drippings. I don't really see how a Provent would freeze that high up in the engine compartment with the heat in there, but I guess if it didn't drip down before it cooled off, it could be possible.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:59 am

Does anybody know of a filter media that allows gas to pass through, while repelling oil?

Picture it this way, if you will: on a foggy morning at the fuel station, you notice an oil spot on the ground. On that oil spot are droplets of water, caused by the water vapor in the air condensing on the oil - since they don't mix. The concrete around the oil spot (because it is porous) absorbs the water vapor, while the oil-soaked area of concrete will not. the concrete is still porous, but the oil in the pores repels the oil, causing it to condense on the surface, where it will eventually collect and roll off if the concrete is angled.

That, but instead of repelling water, it repels oil.

Doesn't the Provent actually absorb the oil, becoming saturated? Maybe someone can post a pic of the filter out of a Provent?

linewarbr · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:04 am

As for the possibility of freezing, the place where the oil mist condenses and collects (i.e., a Provent) is the danger area. I'm talking about something immediately between the CCV Puck and the opening into the intake, angled in such a way that the oil mist condenses and then drains immediately back into the Crankcase through the CCV vent - negating the need for a tap into the block for a drain, or any other collection device.

BVCRD · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:24 am

When I was in Alaska, we used these sheets of media to absorb fuel spills. It soaked up oil and gas, but not water. Maybe something like that.

mackruss · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:39 am

Diapers for heavens sake :roll:

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:07 am

Bad allegorical example, dude - water, denser than oil, floats oil - oil is insulative - water droplets on oil spots is covered in a thin film of oil changing the surface tension on the water droplets, preventing them from evaporating as quickly as pure water droplets (how fast does oil evaporate, and at what temperature? 1125*F?) -

Provent synthetic filter media does not absorb the oil, as I indicated previously - crancase effluent is also loaded with soot, byproduct of Diesel combustion - it is the soot that builds up to plug the media interstices, not the oil - that's the black in yer oil - and, since most of the Provent installs merely dumps the drain into the open atmosphere, as the Provent cools from engine operating temps, raw atmosphere is drawn back up the open drain - atmosphere is also drawn in thru the connection to the turbo inlet thru the airbox as the engine cools - and, as we all know, atmosphere is loaded with moisture, particularly atmosphere in inclement or\and winter climes - tie Provent back into the crankcase, the system is then sealed from that end, with greatly reduced event of internal water accumulation - any internal H2O accumulation then is sourced thru the airbox when the engine is not running

Thus, a case may also be made for regular cleaning events, as Provent is plumbed with relief venting, both for over-pressure and under-pressure, or vacuum - as the filter media becomes plugged, raw atmosphere can be drawn in thru the vacuum relief, adding to the frozen water vapor problem - the vacuum relief prevents pulling full intake vacuum on the crankcase, equally as bad as over-pressuring the crankcase, with increased eventuality of engine damage, rather than environmental damage

linewarbr · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:33 pm

No, it has to be oil-repellant rather than soaking it up. I guess the next question is: "Is there any substance apart from water that is oil-repellent?"

gmctd · **Posted:** Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:50 pm

Most of the plastics and synthetics are both water and oil repellent - naturals, such as paper from plants, and cotton, are both oil and water absorbent, unless treated - look at yer typical oilable\cleanable filter element media (K&N, AirRaid, etc) - the oil adheres to the media, statically attracting dust\silicates, but rinses off leaving the media clean, ready for the fresh oil re-spray

CCV Adsorbent idea?

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