Blown CRD.

Amianthus · **Posted:** Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:10 am

Not quite the way I wanted to introduce myself, but what the hey.

We have a 2005 Liberty CRD with 120Kmi. Now with a blown engine. I have posted the pics on my FB page. So feel free to take a look at the carnage.

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2042828&id=1245416380&l=d9e000f685

Just a couple of questions.

This seems like an EXTRAORDINARILY RARE occurrence. But has it happened to anyone here before? What did you do?

I plan on rebuilding the engine. And rodding it a bit. Anyone know how much I can squeeze out of it? Where to find aftermarket bits? I have a few shops that I trust with most of my custom work. I'd like to take the engine to somewhere around 300 HP. And feel that it can be done. But after looking at the carnage... I dunno. Any opinions?

Quick background on my mechanical abilities. I used to run Amusement Ride Diesel Performance. And have put together several (LD and MD) diesels well in excess of 700HP. None of which have blown up to date. I quit the diesel performance biz because of all the backstabbing and patent infringements that I saw. Basically, all the BS. So I have a pretty good grip on what needs to be done. And what I want to do.

Just would like some insight from someone who's been down this path. Just so that I don't have to blaze the trail, if I don't have to.

Thanks for the welcome and the help.
A

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

The block is good for 300, but you would need to change just about everything else if you want it to live. We are not aware of any after-market engine hardware in the states, the volumes where just too low to justify it. If you rod the engine, the piston height would need to change as this engine does not have rollover protection. Did you check the timing when taking the engine apart? Your failure mode looks like the timing slipped and the valve impacted the piston a few times and then broke. The aluminum cylinder head is the weak link on this engine. If pushing over 240hp the cylinder pressures become too much and the head could have fatigue failure over time, this is due to the large bore of the 2.8l. A cast iron head would be the way to go and no one has developed one to our knowledge. With a new head, the port geometry could change as it is flow limited above 3500rpm if running very high boost. What you are looking to do could cost a small fortune as all the auxillary equipment would need to be upgraded as well (intercooler, radiator, exhaust and transmission). The torsionals are very high with a 4-cylinder engine and the 45RFE was never designed to handle that level of torque below 2000rpm. I you are able to pull this off, you will deserve an emmy!

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

Had the timing belt been serviced before 120K?

linewarbr · **Posted:** Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:36 am

This is the first I've heard on this board of someone with catastrophic engine damage from a failed timing belt. In reality, I don't think that all that many CRD owners have put enough miles on thier Jeep to necessitate the timing belt change yet. Won't be long for me though - once I hit 95k I will start looking to get it done BEFORE 100k.

Amianthus, let me give a x2 to GreenDiesel. Those guys KNOW what they're talking about. You're in good hands listening to their advice.

95BadBoy · **Posted:** Thu Oct 01, 2009 3:36 pm

All I can say is - wow. :shock:

Sorry to see that kinda damage on your rig. It will be a long time, but a timing belt swap will happen B4 getting over 100K for sure.

Amianthus · **Posted:** Thu Oct 01, 2009 4:26 pm

Thanks for the responses.

As for rodding it, I am still toying around with the possibilities and the paths to get there. The timing belt was changed at 90 Kmi and the timing was perfect when taking it off. So it wasn't the timing belt.

That and I KNOW that the valve bridges (or whatever they are called in this application) are designed to deflect and distort in the event of piston contact. I haven't taken out the stem from the head yet. Although, there's nothing holding it in. So I don't know the failure mode. Not yet. And I don't know if I will ever be able to figure it out. If it was fatigue, or heat stress, or forging flaw, valve seat defect, et al.

I am unfamiliar with your term "rollover protection". Can you describe it?

I don't think a lot of what I wanted to do to this engine will be possible. For several reasons. Some of which you state. Head stress is a big one (more with the laminated gasket structure). I can alleviate some of that with higher clamp load. But I can't go too crazy. And the increase in RPM is a moot point. The PCM shift point modification is proprietary. And will be too tough to change. So the custom porting and flow testing of the head shouldn't be needed. The stock unit (which I think is still put together fairly well) should suffice. One of my concerns is the sleeve durability as well. I don't know how much abuse the sleeve will take. I would calculate it, but I don't know the tensile of the alloy it's made from. So when calculating cylinder pressures... I just don't know. So that's also a concern.

The durability of the transmission has already been taken care of (good thing I have a transmission guy in my pocket). This 545rfe should be able to handle anything I can force this engine to throw at it now.

I am also running into the problems with parts. Let alone aftermarket stuff. So I will do all that I can with what I have available to me.

Now, after talking to someone at Inmotion, another route for performance was being derived by me. And it sounds much more plausible. Although, I think that the power would be limited to around 250. Which is still quite a hop from 160 Bhp. But still. I am just exploring.

Thanks for the input to date. I appreciate it. I will post my findings as I proceed. Keep coming with the tips. Any help is great.

A

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:44 pm

If you would like another block to test ideas on... I might be able to help. I also have cylinder sleeve parts if you wanted to have any metallurgy tests done on it. I can tell you from experience, the cylinder sleeves are tough, but don't put up with much abuse from the connecting rod beating on them after the piston head evaporates.

I had the #1 cylinder piston come apart on me at 65k miles just 10 miles after installing a new turbo b/c the old one had snapped the center shaft behind the friction weld. I suspect lack of lubrication from the turbo failure, the turbo and #1 cylinder are directly connected. When the piston broke up, the connecting rod managed to INVERT and punch a hole in the oil pan. So I now have a flow-through cylinder in this engine block.

I'm going to be in the market for a longblock in the near future b/c I have decided that rebuilding this block is not within my skills. I haven't looked at your pictures yet, but in the replacement of my engine the mechanic goofed on something and the timing jumped... And all the rocker arms were trashed. Aren't valve interference motors fun? I'm surprised that more happened to your engine if the timing jumped, its supposed to stop with the trashed rockers.

Amianthus · **Posted:** Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:22 pm

I might take you up on that. About the easiest thing I can do is test the alloy spectrographically and hope that it matches a common alloy. Then I can look that up separately. I have access to that kind of equipment.

But my work will be taking me out of town for a month. So the engine will be at a standstill. I am going to send out a myriad of parts for rebuilding and customizing. Specifically, the injectors, turbine, head bolts, and I will re-curve the torque converter. That should get me a ways.

I also plan on talking to Greendiesel. Just to bounce some ideas and perhaps use them as my programmer. I haven't decided yet. I mean hey, they support the board and seems to have a pretty good idea on the dynamics of this engine. So if they will tolerate me, I think it could become a good relationship.

A

dkenny · **Posted:** Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:14 pm

ok..some say timing belt problem???how and why?

I'm not an expert here just trying to learn..but I thinking a timing belt failure would have resulted in more damage to other cyls thant just #2?
hey..if I'm off base..just say so..

there looks like some gouges on #4 as well?

I would like to see to pushing 300hp..that would be cool.. I like to see 300hp in my 99 dodge truck..possble..but with a 4 cyl? cool..

-dkenny

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:09 am

Is that rust in the #1 cylinder? If so you may want to change out the #1 Sleeve along with the #2 piston and sleeve.
Your photos do not have high enough resolution to determine if the engine was over heated. look at the cylinder walls and see if they look like white color cast steel and do not have a brown toast color. I suspect the brown color I saw was a reflection from something else.

As far as the Cylinder Head goes, replacement is best, but there may be a machine shop who can work wonders. As a rule, they will not take on the job if they can't do it.
As a rule of thumb, if the cylinder walls turn a brown toast color, the engine has been over heated to the point that the rings are annealed and will not properly seal. Since you will at least be replacing the rings on three of the cylinders and the piston on #2, I am only putting this info in for future reference.
One thing I would take into consideration is how much they get out of the VM 2.8 for Marine applications where they do not have the limitation of a radiator cooling capacity. This figure would let you know the limitations of the structural parts of the engine. Ya, you can fudge the Marine HP a little, but be weary if it is not at least 50% to 75% more than our vehicle rating.
Perkins has had some 6L engines that were rated 120HP industrial and 300HP Marine, same long block and head.
Some of the 5.9L 12 valve Cummins engines have been tricked to 1000 HP, they have a very strong crank.

Amianthus · **Posted:** Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:33 am

It's hard to tell if the ash on the pistons is from my disassembly or from the crud that was on top of the engine falling into it when I pulled the injectors to use my boroscope. I thought that I might have a leak in the EGR as well (Godforsaken POS!!!). So I am looking in to that as well.

It has NOT had a power box on it. All though, we did buy it used with 100Kmi on it. But the woman who had it, well, she left everything stock as far as I could tell.

I have a '99 Ram 2500 with Twin-Turbos (made by me), cam, p7100 pump, springs, injectors, et al. I KNOW I am over 700RWHP. But that's a totally different application.

The head's toasted. That's for sure. So it will be replaced.

As for the rest of it, it will take some time. I figure that by december, I should have it back running. With nothing left but some fuel mapping issues to work out. If even that.

Thanks for the help so far.
A

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:11 pm

I calculated the Horse Power at 228, so now we know where VM draws the line.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:41 pm

Amianthus wrote:

I thought that I might have a leak in the EGR as well (Godforsaken POS!!!).

Huh? Why would you suspect that and how would that contribute to the thrown valve?

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

geordi wrote:

If you would like another block to test ideas on... I might be able to help. I also have cylinder sleeve parts if you wanted to have any metallurgy tests done on it. I can tell you from experience, the cylinder sleeves are tough, but don't put up with much abuse from the connecting rod beating on them after the piston head evaporates.

I had the #1 cylinder piston come apart on me at 65k miles just 10 miles after installing a new turbo b/c the old one had snapped the center shaft behind the friction weld. I suspect lack of lubrication from the turbo failure, the turbo and #1 cylinder are directly connected. When the piston broke up, the connecting rod managed to INVERT and punch a hole in the oil pan. So I now have a flow-through cylinder in this engine block.

I'm going to be in the market for a longblock in the near future b/c I have decided that rebuilding this block is not within my skills. I haven't looked at your pictures yet, but in the replacement of my engine the mechanic goofed on something and the timing jumped... And all the rocker arms were trashed. Aren't valve interference motors fun? I'm surprised that more happened to your engine if the timing jumped, its supposed to stop with the trashed rockers.

Man, I am surprised you can still look at the jeep after all of that!
I hope I never have to deal with a failure like that!

Good reading and interesting pictures, good luck with the repair!

Rich · **Posted:** Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:11 pm

If you need some help turning wrenches, I am in the cities and always willing.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:19 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

I calculated the Horse Power at 228, so now we know where VM draws the line.

...not trying to pick a fight here...just asking out of curiosity.... Would that horsepower rating for the 8-valve marine engine translate to a true baseline for our 16-valve engines?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:34 pm

painemann wrote:

geordi wrote:

If you would like another block to test ideas on... I might be able to help. I also have cylinder sleeve parts if you wanted to have any metallurgy tests done on it. I can tell you from experience, the cylinder sleeves are tough, but don't put up with much abuse from the connecting rod beating on them after the piston head evaporates.

I had the #1 cylinder piston come apart on me at 65k miles just 10 miles after installing a new turbo b/c the old one had snapped the center shaft behind the friction weld. I suspect lack of lubrication from the turbo failure, the turbo and #1 cylinder are directly connected. When the piston broke up, the connecting rod managed to INVERT and punch a hole in the oil pan. So I now have a flow-through cylinder in this engine block.

I'm going to be in the market for a longblock in the near future b/c I have decided that rebuilding this block is not within my skills. I haven't looked at your pictures yet, but in the replacement of my engine the mechanic goofed on something and the timing jumped... And all the rocker arms were trashed. Aren't valve interference motors fun? I'm surprised that more happened to your engine if the timing jumped, its supposed to stop with the trashed rockers.

Man, I am surprised you can still look at the jeep after all of that!
I hope I never have to deal with a failure like that!

Good reading and interesting pictures, good luck with the repair!

I can still look b/c I'm still making payments. If I had a way out, I would have taken it. The little voice that said "Don't buy a Chrysler" before I got it was shouted down by the complete lack of an affordable (or any, really) alternative diesel powered SUV. I do NOT want one of those behemoth trucks, the argument that a small diesel can't be put into the Ford Ranger and similar trucks is BS, pure and simple. But I also move a lot of tech gear, so I need protected haulage.

So my options were... .VW Touareg TDI with genetic-enhancing 10 cylinders... Or the CRD. Since I couldn't afford (but REALLY wanted the power and toys) the VW... Here I am. Am I thinking this was a bad decision? I don't know, I'm of two minds. I wish that VW had brought the I-5 version of the Touareg TDI as well... But now the prices are starting to be more affordable... But I'm still paying this off. Ugh.

Turbo Tim · **Posted:** Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:57 pm

So wouldn’t another whole engine out of a wreck be cheaper?
Had to ask.

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

While we're talking high performance 4 cylinders, I thought of this old TDR thread. I hope it works:

http://www.turbodieselregister.com/foru ... lt-us.html

It's South Bend Clutch's Mud Rail motor. Vids at their web site. 700hp/1300ft.lbs out of a Cummins 4bt. :shock:

I remember seeing a post somewhere a while back of a guy trying to put a 4bt in a Jeep Cherokee I think. I was very big for the Jeep but it was a cool idea.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:00 am

kdlewis1975 wrote:

warp2diesel wrote:

I calculated the Horse Power at 228, so now we know where VM draws the line.

...not trying to pick a fight here...just asking out of curiosity.... Would that horsepower rating for the 8-valve marine engine translate to a true baseline for our 16-valve engines?

16 valve will rev up faster and have a little more with a flatter torque curve than an eight valve.
Fast revs out of a Marine engine is of no use since they run a prop.
Same block, crank, and rods, same structural limitations, that is my point.
VM like any company will employ a safety/service factor to limit failures.
When some one wants to go for the max, they are taking the risk and are flirting with destructive testing.
With the 228 HP Marine rating, we all know that we could go up to that point and perhaps a little beyond without worrying about having our engine fly apart from pure horse power out put.
I would never attempt it with out a complement of gauges.
Of course, there are a lot of DUMB@$$ stunts that will destroy even a stock engine, that idiots reserve the right to do.

Blown CRD.

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