Mixing Biodiesel with Petroleum Diesel

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:09 pm

Upon learning of the reduced wear benefits of running 2% bio, I went looking for a source. Only 8 min from my RI office, I found a place that has B99 for only $2.66 a gallon (Cumberland, RI). (In Mass, it is hard to find petroleum diesel these days for much less than $3 agallon.)

My question is, is bio lighter or heavier than petroleum? (I'm guessing lighter, but I don't know.) This would affect whether you add a quart of bio before or after filling up to help it mix.

Thanks,

DOC

stoutdog · **Posted:** Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:35 pm

At that price, it would probably be even more economical to just run straight B99... even with the 10% hit to your mpg. Especially if you drive a lot. Better for your engine, better for the environment, and better for your wallet. :SOMBRERO:

As to your question, I'm not sure it really matters since normal stop and go driving should mix the stuff up pretty well.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:46 pm

Unfortunately, my wife drives in the opposite direction to me for work so she would have to drive an hour or more out of her way to get to this station. I picked up 10 gallons in 2,5 gallon cans to mix in, a quart at a time. No bio is available anywhere near her normal itinerary.

DOC

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:02 pm

You can mix bio and petro together in any ratio and in any order and it will eventually form an even mix. But it will mix together quicker if you add the small amount of bio before filling the tank with petro.

Keep in mind that excess fuel from the fuel rail is constantly being dumped back into the tank, so it mixes as you drive.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:08 pm

I forgot about that. Thanks CATCRD.

DOC

Silverdiesel · **Posted:** Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:21 pm

Reading other light diesel forums (VW TDI) they are swayed towards stating that adding AFTER filling with D2 is that the Bio just sits on top unmixed. Since our CRD's are common rail but with no regeneration cycle for blowing out a particulate filter running up to a B100 will not hurt. Reccomendations are to premix by mixing and stirring or shaking then adding to the tank.
I have run striaght B99 and others here run B100 and even personal brew with no ill effects.
In my area less than 1/2 dozen outlets sell bio and that needs to change. The quality and standards will soon be able to punch through that regeneration cycle problem and modern post 2007 models will be able to run higher concentrations.

It is so wrong that EPA/CARB require diesel particulate exhaust be cleaner than gasser PM. There is more dust being emmited by your wearing tires than PM out of the tailpipe. By 2013 ALL new model year diesels from light 4 cylinders to over the road semi's will have to meet this standard.

Roland

naturist · **Posted:** Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:06 pm

Yes, better to add the quart or so biodiesel first, then fill on up with petro. Biodiesel is lighter than petro, I can confirm that. I would also like to suggest that relying on mixing due to either motion of driving or the recirculation of fuel is futile. While it is true that biodiesel is infinitely soluble, it is NOT true that it mixes thoroughly and dissolves instantly. For a number of reasons, if you put a small amount of it on the top of a tankful of petro, it will likely stay that way until you either suck the tank dry or refill with petro.

I noticed when doing some experiments with it that making a 50% mix tests the limits of solubility, and in fact, tends to result in a mixture that appears less-than-perfectly-clear, even with vigorous shaking, for some hours before finally clearing. This suggests that it takes a little time for it to actually dissolve in the petro (or vice versa).

So, if you want to take maximum advantage of the added lubricity by making a 2% mix, you also want to make sure it is thoroughly mixed, and that calls for putting it in first, or even better, mixing it with diesel in a 5 gallon that you shake the daylights out of before adding, then filling the tank with petro diesel.

TJ2 · **Posted:** Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:08 am

naturist wrote:

So, if you want to take maximum advantage of the added lubricity by making a 2% mix, you also want to make sure it is thoroughly mixed, and that calls for putting it in first, or even better, mixing it with diesel in a 5 gallon that you shake the daylights out of before adding, then filling the tank with petro diesel.

The bio forums say that external mixing is necessary. Since that isn't an option for me, I'll put the bio in and pump D2 on top of it.

FWIW, running B50 or B100 is a really the way to go if it's available. And, it is cheaper than D2 in a lot of places.

UFO · **Posted:** Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:26 am

TJ2 wrote:

naturist wrote:

So, if you want to take maximum advantage of the added lubricity by making a 2% mix, you also want to make sure it is thoroughly mixed, and that calls for putting it in first, or even better, mixing it with diesel in a 5 gallon that you shake the daylights out of before adding, then filling the tank with petro diesel.

The bio forums say that external mixing is necessary. Since that isn't an option for me, I'll put the bio in and pump D2 on top of it.

FWIW, running B50 or B100 is a really the way to go if it's available. And, it is cheaper than D2 in a lot of places.

That's always worked fine for me. The CRD handles bio in any percentage, and it will eventually mix together. Add 5% before topping off and you should have at least 2% for the whole tank.

racertracer · **Posted:** Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:33 am

Does a gallon of Vegetable oil added to a full tank of diesel work the same as using .05% of Biodiesel?

As anyone ever added one gallon of vegetable oil to a full tank?

UFO · **Posted:** Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:23 pm

racertracer wrote:

Does a gallon of Vegetable oil added to a full tank of diesel work the same as using .05% of Biodiesel?

As anyone ever added one gallon of vegetable oil to a full tank?

I think you mean 5% biodiesel? The claim out in veggieland is vegetable oil is just as lubricious as biodiesel. Personally I would never put vegetable oil in any measurable quantity in my tank. On cold starts it burns incompletely and gets into the ring lands and engine oil where it polymerizes. I believe it is not good for the engine long term.

boilermaker2 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:04 pm

FWIW our local provider use a propietary process of blending as the two liquids go into storage under heat and pressure for a more complete and thorough blend of the two liquids. I have a jar of the stuff on my shelf (in the dark) for the past three years and it has yet to separate or cloud.

Boilermaker2

grywlfbg · **Posted:** Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:14 pm

racertracer wrote:

Does a gallon of Vegetable oil added to a full tank of diesel work the same as using .05% of Biodiesel?

As anyone ever added one gallon of vegetable oil to a full tank?

Why? Cooking oil is WAY more expensive than biodiesel.

That being said I once dumped a quart of olive oil (it was a bit old and smelled a little funny but was still clear) into a tank full of B99 with no ill effects. Freaked the wife out when I took the bottle and walked past the trash can and out to the Jeep :ROTFL:

But I wouldn't make a habit of it.

To the OP, when I was splash-blending back in the day I would put the bio in first and then the D2.

grommet1 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:57 am

boilermaker2 wrote:

FWIW our local provider use a propietary process of blending as the two liquids go into storage under heat and pressure for a more complete and thorough blend of the two liquids. I have a jar of the stuff on my shelf (in the dark) for the past three years and it has yet to separate or cloud.

Boilermaker2

I will follow the FWIW comment and add that I have a good friend that has been running backyard blended WVO in his 2006 F250 Powerstroke for 3 years with no ill effects, yet. His recipe uses clean filtered veggie oil, kerosene, a little gasoline (yes gasoline), and a product called "Diesel Secret". He keeps telling me to stop by and fill up but I am still not convinced that it is completely safe for my Liberty. He did give me a sample a couple of years ago and I can say that it too has shown no signs of separation.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:53 pm

grommet1 wrote:

boilermaker2 wrote:

FWIW our local provider use a propietary process of blending as the two liquids go into storage under heat and pressure for a more complete and thorough blend of the two liquids. I have a jar of the stuff on my shelf (in the dark) for the past three years and it has yet to separate or cloud.

Boilermaker2

I will follow the FWIW comment and add that I have a good friend that has been running backyard blended WVO in his 2006 F250 Powerstroke for 3 years with no ill effects, yet. His recipe uses clean filtered veggie oil, kerosene, a little gasoline (yes gasoline), and a product called "Diesel Secret". He keeps telling me to stop by and fill up but I am still not convinced that it is completely safe for my Liberty. He did give me a sample a couple of years ago and I can say that it too has shown no signs of separation.

By blending in the gasoline with the WVO he is trying to get the viscosity back down to diesel levels.

The problem with running gasoline in the diesel mix is that after going through the IP and the fuel rail the gasoline will actually vaporize and separate out of the mixture.

Blending the gas in the lower the viscosity is a bad bad idea.

kdlewis1975 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:12 pm

[quote="It is so wrong that EPA/CARB require diesel particulate exhaust be cleaner than gasser PM. There is more dust being emmited by your wearing tires than PM out of the tailpipe. By 2013 ALL new model year diesels from light 4 cylinders to over the road semi's will have to meet this standard.

Roland[/quote]

The difference is what that dust "is." Particulates from the exhaust can contain polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons which are known to cause cancer.

grommet1 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:42 pm

Sir Sam wrote:

grommet1 wrote:

boilermaker2 wrote:

FWIW our local provider use a propietary process of blending as the two liquids go into storage under heat and pressure for a more complete and thorough blend of the two liquids. I have a jar of the stuff on my shelf (in the dark) for the past three years and it has yet to separate or cloud.

Boilermaker2

I will follow the FWIW comment and add that I have a good friend that has been running backyard blended WVO in his 2006 F250 Powerstroke for 3 years with no ill effects, yet. His recipe uses clean filtered veggie oil, kerosene, a little gasoline (yes gasoline), and a product called "Diesel Secret". He keeps telling me to stop by and fill up but I am still not convinced that it is completely safe for my Liberty. He did give me a sample a couple of years ago and I can say that it too has shown no signs of separation.

By blending in the gasoline with the WVO he is trying to get the viscosity back down to diesel levels.

The problem with running gasoline in the diesel mix is that after going through the IP and the fuel rail the gasoline will actually vaporize and separate out of the mixture.

Blending the gas in the lower the viscosity is a bad bad idea.

I agree. As if the completely different chemistry of gasoline and kerosene being run through a diesel isn't bad enough, my friend is running this hideous fuel in a 6.0L powerstroke, which has enough problems of its own.

Mixing Biodiesel with Petroleum Diesel

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