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 Post subject: Re: Help needed, voltage reg failure?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:13 pm 
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warp2diesel wrote:
Gassers have PCMs (ECM and TCM in one box).
Diesels like our CRDs and the Cummins have a ECM and a separate TCM, sorry that is the way it is.

Try to locate a PCM for a CRD you will get strange looks if they are Polite and laughed at if they are not.

My KJ has a separate PCM(left fender) and TCM(right fender),and yes it's called a PCM even without the TCM integrated in a KJ(for the 42RLE KJ's).


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 Post subject: Re: Help needed, voltage reg failure?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:52 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
warp2diesel wrote:
Gassers have PCMs (ECM and TCM in one box).
Diesels like our CRDs and the Cummins have a ECM and a separate TCM, sorry that is the way it is.

Try to locate a PCM for a CRD you will get strange looks if they are Polite and laughed at if they are not.

My KJ has a separate PCM(left fender) and TCM(right fender),and yes it's called a PCM even without the TCM integrated in a KJ(for the 42RLE KJ's).


Older KJs did have a separate ECM and TCM as did other Chrysler products.

Then, Holy Scholar of the KJFSMs, is the '06 KJFSM in error when it shows the BCM controlling the voltage of the Alternator instead of the PCM?
Think you have a paradox.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle


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 Post subject: Re: Help needed, voltage reg failure?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:07 pm 
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warp2diesel wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
warp2diesel wrote:
Gassers have PCMs (ECM and TCM in one box).
Diesels like our CRDs and the Cummins have a ECM and a separate TCM, sorry that is the way it is.

Try to locate a PCM for a CRD you will get strange looks if they are Polite and laughed at if they are not.

My KJ has a separate PCM(left fender) and TCM(right fender),and yes it's called a PCM even without the TCM integrated in a KJ(for the 42RLE KJ's).


Older KJs did have a separate ECM and TCM as did other Chrysler products.

Then, Holy Scholar of the KJFSMs, is the '06 KJFSM in error when it shows the BCM controlling the voltage of the Alternator instead of the PCM?
Think you have a paradox.

From the '06 FSM...............

Quote:
REGULATOR - VOLTAGE
DESCRIPTION
The Electronic Voltage Regulator (EVR) is not a separate component. It is actually a voltage regulating circuit
located within the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). The EVR is not serviced separately. If replacement is necessary,
the PCM must be replaced.
OPERATION
The amount of DC current produced by the generator is controlled by EVR circuitry contained within the Powertrain
Control Module (PCM). This circuitry is connected in series with the generators second rotor field terminal and its
ground.
Voltage is regulated by cycling the ground path to control the strength of the rotor magnetic field. The EVR circuitry
monitors system line voltage (B+) and battery temperature (refer to Battery Temperature Sensor for more information).
It then determines a target charging voltage. If sensed battery voltage is 0.5 volts or lower than the target
voltage, the PCM grounds the field winding until sensed battery voltage is 0.5 volts above target voltage. A circuit in
the PCM cycles the ground side of the generator field up to 100 times per second (100Hz), but has the capability
to ground the field control wire 100% of the time (full field) to achieve the target voltage. If the charging rate cannot
be monitored (limp-in), a duty cycle of 25% is used by the PCM in order to have some generator output. Also refer
to Charging Operation for additional information.


Same as the '05's.


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 Post subject: Re: Help needed, voltage reg failure?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:16 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
Quote:
REGULATOR - VOLTAGE
DESCRIPTION
The Electronic Voltage Regulator (EVR) is not a separate component. It is actually a voltage regulating circuit
located within the Powertrain Control Module (PCM). The EVR is not serviced separately. If replacement is necessary,
the PCM must be replaced.
OPERATION
The amount of DC current produced by the generator is controlled by EVR circuitry contained within the Powertrain
Control Module (PCM). This circuitry is connected in series with the generators second rotor field terminal and its
ground.
Voltage is regulated by cycling the ground path to control the strength of the rotor magnetic field. The EVR circuitry
monitors system line voltage (B+) and battery temperature (refer to Battery Temperature Sensor for more information).
It then determines a target charging voltage. If sensed battery voltage is 0.5 volts or lower than the target
voltage, the PCM grounds the field winding until sensed battery voltage is 0.5 volts above target voltage. A circuit in
the PCM cycles the ground side of the generator field up to 100 times per second (100Hz), but has the capability
to ground the field control wire 100% of the time (full field) to achieve the target voltage. If the charging rate cannot
be monitored (limp-in), a duty cycle of 25% is used by the PCM in order to have some generator output. Also refer
to Charging Operation for additional information.


Same as the '05's.


Take a look at the wiring diagram, looks like it does not agree with the verbiage. My MS Photo Manager is having problems so I can't print and post the page 8W-2-2, it clearly shows the BCM controlling the voltage of the alternator on the Diesel. Since I work with Engineers, I trust their drawings more than their verbiage. Again, the KJFSM is full of errors. If this thread keeps going on after I fix my MS Photo Manager, I will post 8W-20-2 and put this issue to rest.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle


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 Post subject: Re: Help needed, voltage reg failure?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:00 am 
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The drawing indicates the BCM does the job of voltage regulation.
'06KJFSM can be in error, as I stated before.

Image

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle


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 Post subject: Re: Help needed, voltage reg failure?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:29 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:26 am
Posts: 844
Location: Hoedspruit , South Africa
I have the circuit diagrams for 2002 KJs which shows a differant diagram. Mine shows that for Diesel the ECM does the voltage adjustment and for the Gas model the PCM does the regulation.
I have had to work in this area before on my 2002 2.5 Diesel due to bad wires in the harness giving me multiple problems and in my case the diagram was correct.

Also....I have found several errors in the circuit diagrams so your diagram may have a mistake in it or things have changed with the newer vehicles maybe? :?

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2002 Export CRD 2.5 Sport


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 Post subject: Re: Help needed, voltage reg failure?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Billwill wrote:
I have the circuit diagrams for 2002 KJs which shows a differant diagram. Mine shows that for Diesel the ECM does the voltage adjustment and for the Gas model the PCM does the regulation.
I have had to work in this area before on my 2002 2.5 Diesel due to bad wires in the harness giving me multiple problems and in my case the diagram was correct.

Also....I have found several errors in the circuit diagrams so your diagram may have a mistake in it or things have changed with the newer vehicles maybe? :?


I am by no means a Radical Fundamentalist FSM Thumper, in fact I find a lot of errors in both the verbiage and drawings. Jeep is not alone on that one, the Bentley manual for my Wife's TDI is worse for errors.

Good luck, you may need to trace the wiring with some very long multimeter leads, been there done that before.
In a worse case, you could adapt a voltage regulator out of another vehicle if your EMC or BCM is bad. The alternator does not care how the voltage is regulated as long as the diodes in the rectifier bridge don't blow up. Can't say if the ECM, BCM, or TCM gives a hoot, never tried it.

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle


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 Post subject: Re: Help needed, voltage reg failure?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 5:28 pm
Posts: 605
Location: Michigan
For KJ diesels, this is the architecture:

2002-2004:
*Diesel engine controller is EDC15
*Alternator is connected to engine controller
*ECU controls alternator charging

2005-2007:
*Diesel engine controller is EDC16
*Alternator is connected to the Gateway module (integrated into BCM)
*Gateway module is responsible for converting CAN messages into J1850 messages for rest of KJ electrical architecture, and vice versa
*ECU has no control over alternator operation


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 Post subject: Re: Help needed, voltage reg failure?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:05 pm 
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According to the drawing there are several things that can make your alternator not work.
Image
I would start with the two fuses in the Power Distribution Center and check them with a 12 Volt Test light.
Test the Auto Shutdown Relay, if you are lucky it is a standard ISO relay that will fit other cars and readily available. Jumper the relay if you need to to see if that is the cause of not charging.
Try with just the key on first, but you may need to run the engine to do the tests.
Test pin one on the alternator with the Dark Green with red strip wire on it, use both a test light to load it and a volt meter to make sure you have 12 volts. The test light will load the circuit and if you have a flaky relay, fuse, or connection it will light very dim or not at all, even if the volt meter reads 12 volt. Check pin 2 on the alternator with the test light and see if it lights up. According to the drawing on your '02 CRD, the ECM controls the charging voltage. Looks like it varies the ground of the alternator rotor either by analog or digital type switching, from a lets get it going stand point it is a pin head academic issue. Relays, fuses, and connections are more apt to fail than an a Bosch ECM.
If you have a manual transmission, you should not have or need a TCM. In the US the Acid Head Hippie run EPA has regulations that are not friendly to diesels and with the KJ CRD we could only get it in Automatic.

Good Luck

_________________
2006 Pearl Green CRD
Magnaflow 2 1/2" Cat Back
KJ Extra Leg Room Brackets, Carter Lift Pump, V6 Airbox, ORM
Fuel cooler, Oil Separator, Progard 7
Gauges EGT Boost Trans Temp Oil Pres, Michelin LXT AT2 245 70 R16
7,000# Draw Tight hitch, PML EX Deep Trans Pan
Centrifuge, SunCoast, Transgo, RAM TCM, InMotion Stage 2
Wife's 99 TDI VW Beetle


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