Hey Mr. Diesel, Suck on this!

jeep4life7 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:24 pm

THEY ARE ALL JEEPS!!!!!!! :wink:

flman · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:33 pm

AZKJ wrote:

An interesting thread indeed.

I may have missed it, but has anyone sat down and crunched ALL of the numbers?? I would like to see the cost of ownership over 100,000 miles for the 3.7L and the CRD? Include gas/diesel, regular maintenance (forget about tires), the talked about mods for the CRD to keep it running, and the expensive of the timing belt change due at 100,000 miles. Then take into account the fact there are a limited number of mechanics that even know that Jeep offered a diesel Liberty, and even less that have worked on them.

Not being knowledgeable about the CRD and all of it's quirks, I would be very curious to see how the numbers stack up and if CRD ownership is really worth it to the "average" person. :?:

I have 2 CRDs, only mods are GDE tunes, and a new torque converter in one of them, And you can hook 3 3.7s to my 2 CRDs and I will tow all 3 of them back wards. :goink:

Now as far as all the mods go, they are not necessary, the only mod you really need is, unplug the MAF sensor wire. Cost $0. If you read up in the CRD section you might think the sky is going to fall if you don't do all them mods.

CRDs are low cost to run, and the maintenance is not high if you are not afraid to get your milky white hands dirty :SOMBRERO:

flman · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:39 pm

InCommando wrote:

Has any one done the math on the CRD option plus the mods that most CRD owners ,ust perform for "normal operation" to get the break-even point for the diesel, considering the sometimes considerable fuel premium?

Only weenies that read and abide by Consumer Reports do that math, people that appreciate the finer things in life like diesels, just go out and buy them :pepper:

salden77 · **Joined:** Tue Jun 01, 2010 2:42 pm **Posts:** 271

yes they are all jeeps, but to be completely honest with you i would have never bought a jeep if wasnt for the diesel, and if i knew about them when they first came out i would have had one a long time ago. iv had one fuel problem with mine and it was because the idiot owner before me hacked in a fuel/water separator bowl and it was letting air in the fuel system, i dont even need a radio with the CRD, i just unroll the windows and listen to the motor and turbo, and once i get the MP-8 tuner my KJ CRD is going to pull even harder :rockon:

stoutdog · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:43 pm

Flman is right... you guys have an inflated understanding of what are the "necessary" mods. HOT Tune? Not necessary. Any tune? Not necessary. Euro TC? Not necessary. Muffler mods? Not necessary. Provent/EHM? Not necessary... The ORM is free and about the only mod you "need" to do. Throw in the new fuel filter head and new CAC hoses, maybe. The Jeep will run fine without many of the other things that CRD owners do.

I bought my Limited CRD with 25k miles over a year ago, for $16,590 fully loaded, with brand new tires. I keep full records of everything I do to my Jeep, mpg, and cost. After performing a full fluid change out of precaution in the first few weeks of ownership, and completing all the mods that are necessary and for fun, my total cost of ownership is now at $19,274.20 exactly. That's $2,684.20 spent over the last 10k miles, or $0.27/mile. My actual fuel costs/mile are $0.09, so you can see that most of this money is in mods, nearly all of which I have done for fun/improved performance, not out of necessity.

Now, as a side by side comparison to other 2006 KJs, 3.7L, here are links to some of the gassers on Fuelly that have the most fill-ups (therefore, the best average):

http://www.fuelly.com/driver/tgchi/liberty
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/lastoch/liberty
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/caddie149/liberty

As you can see, costs range between $0.12 and $0.21 per mile, with the guy getting 17 mpg AVERAGE (as most of you all claim to get) costing the most - and yes, I see his fuel prices are a little higher, so let's call it $0.19/mile, for fun. Within 10k miles, factoring in two oil changes, my cost/mile will be down to $0.18. Another 10k, with my 50k mile service, my cost/mile will be $0.16... another 10k, $0.15, etc., etc., etc. And let me remind you that the costs you are seeing on fuelly ONLY counts gas, not maintenance. Therefore, it can be fairly claimed that I will "break even" with your average gasser's cost/mile within the next 8-10k miles. After that, I am earning money back. I've owned this vehicle for a year now, and plan to run her for another 10 or more... by then, I will have saved thousands in operating costs as my total cost/mile gets closer and closer to around $0.11, where it will likely peak (given fuel prices stay similar).

Yes, CRDs were more expensive up front... I don't by cars up front, as a general rule. I'm patient, I can wait a few years for the price to come down on a mint-condition used car like this one. Therefore, you spending $19xxx on your car brand new means nothing to me.... I spent $16,590 on mine; don't care what the brand new cost was. Count me as already starting about $3k ahead of you, before my fuel savings. A used gasser with similar mileage would only be a couple thousand less, allowing me to make up the costs relatively quickly given the longer lifespan of the CRD engine.

Then there are the intangibles.... I have more torque; I can tow more; I have more fun (admittedly a personal sentiment); I pollute less (which I care about); and it sounds so much better, as I've always loved diesels.

You guys can attack CRDs all you want. I have no problem with anyone owning a 3.7L KJ and I don't go out of my way to tell them to "suck on it" because I drive a CRD. I don't attack you all, I just defend myself when attacked. We all own Jeeps, can't we all get along? :JEEPIN:

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:20 pm

stoutdog wrote:

You guys can attack CRDs all you want. I have no problem with anyone owning a 3.7L KJ and I don't go out of my way to tell them to "suck on it" because I drive a CRD. I don't attack you all, I just defend myself when attacked. We all own Jeeps, can't we all get along? :JEEPIN:

This may not apply to you but..........................

Most of the CRD owners here think there CRD is the "cream of the crop",when in reality they are far from it.That there is what I have a issue with,plus the US CRD version just sucks,and yes I have driven them and I was not impressed,not impressed with the VW TDI's either.Plus there owners were the most stuck up a-holes you'd ever meet.

Oh and everything that has failed on my gas KJ in the last 8.5 years you could buy a set of boost hoses for your CRD and have change left over(not including maintenance items).

flman · **Posted:** Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:29 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

Most of the CRD owners here think there CRD is the "cream of the crop",when in reality they are far from it.That there is what I have a issue with,plus the US CRD version just sucks,and yes I have driven them and I was not impressed,not impressed with the VW TDI's either.Plus there owners were the most stuck up a-holes you'd ever meet.

Sorry we can't impress with our low revving CRDs? TDIs they kick some stupid, I know I owned a couple, glad that Jeep made a diesel for me. Maybe you are in denial? Any ways who is stuck up TDI owners? Yeah maybe? Me I run nothing but diesels, I have not bought a gasser since the 80s. I am not going back to the low torque high revving gassers any time soon.

jeep4life7 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:13 am

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:38 am

My first Jeep Liberty was a 2005 CRD. I had several problems with the CRD and finally traded for a 2007 Jeep Liberty 3.7L. Overtime, people started to find solutions to the problems and the CRD became manageable. If I see a good deal on a CRD, I might buy another one. I’m kind of waiting to see what Jeep diesel options are in the future.

stoutdog · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:41 am

tjkj - I don't think the CRD is the "cream of the crop," but I do think it is the best vehicle out there for what I want/need. I did a lot of research prior to purchasing my Jeep and found that the CRD provided the best combo of towing/off-road/mpg for my use.

I had a window regulator fail a few months back; nothing else as of yet....

Honestly, I'm so used to driving diesels now that I just don't like the way gassers drive, so I can completely understand why drivers of gas vehicles don't like diesels. I don't mind the slower acceleration, as I feel that I have plenty for daily use. Never had a problem getting up to speed or on the interstate. However, some folks just want the added horses... and more power to them. Personally, I LOVE the extra torque! Having driven to Flagstaff and back in my CRD and a small handful of gassers over the past year, I can honestly say that I find the CRD handles the mountain interstate far better. I thought there was something wrong with the first van I drove, because it kept downshifting on even the smallest of hills... I hated that feeling, which is why I prefer to drive my CRD on those roads.

jeep4life - exactly my point!

InCommando · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:22 am

Actually, I am pretty familiar with driving a diesel: you may have missed that I bough a CTD and kept it for 180,000 miles. That is far more miles than the average CRD'er has compiled... on a far better engine that required no mods to drive. And one that would yield 20 MPG in a nearly 8K pound vehicle. Makes the 2.8 seem like a fuel hog, doesn't it? BTW: My CTD would eat a CRD ALIVE at the drag strip as it would dip into the 16's.... It isn't diesel I am knocking, it is the thankfully short lived CRD KJ.

Yes, it must be a total misrepresentation that CRD owners post and claim that the CRD REQUIRES many mods. hey, they are the one's posting it....

I also do not think someone buying used is any dollars ahead of my new purchase as I have kept my KJ well past the pay-off point. you getting someone to pay for the required mods ( CRD'ers words, not mine) was smart until you need something else for them. It was a CRD owner that posted in this thread that it takes $3k to make them what they should have been from the factory: no gasser owner made that up. Read your own CRD threads: it is all there.

D.E. has, IIRC, staunchly defended the CRD as well. Right up to the point he had to throw it away for being a pile. The threads should still be there for anyone wanting to check.

I could just imagine the call to arms that went out to defend the CRD against "attack".

if I wish to drive like a diesel, rev slow and not use RPM's, I can about equal CRD numbers on mileage. And I have posted the results of not going over 1800 RPM except for 6th gear on the highway years ago. Guess what? Forgetting the top 60% of the gassers RPM range will net you 21-22 city and 24-25 highway... without the sometimes 50 cent a gallon extra that diesel costs in some areas...and you know that the diesel mark up does it exist. Not to mention that the 2.8 is an unclean little thing with emissions that shame a new diesel. cummins can get a 6BT to pass upcomingmodern emissions without injecting cow piss, yet the less than 1/2 displacement CRD cannot do it with the lower current emissions

Either way, the 2.8 crd was an evolutionary dead end that will soon wind up "all gone."

InCommando · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:23 am

BTW: check the page count :mrgreen:

InCommando · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 2:31 am

LibertyCRD wrote:

AZKJ wrote:

An interesting thread indeed.

I may have missed it, but has anyone sat down and crunched ALL of the numbers?? I would like to see the cost of ownership over 100,000 miles for the 3.7L and the CRD? Include gas/diesel, regular maintenance (forget about tires), the talked about mods for the CRD to keep it running, and the expensive of the timing belt change due at 100,000 miles. Then take into account the fact there are a limited number of mechanics that even know that Jeep offered a diesel Liberty, and even less that have worked on them.

Not being knowledgeable about the CRD and all of it's quirks, I would be very curious to see how the numbers stack up and if CRD ownership is really worth it to the "average" person. :?:

Well, using the U.S. averages (that I listed above), just in FUEL ALONE the CRD will save you $2,772 over the gas KJ in 100,000 miles.

So, does the extra maintenance of the CRD cost $3,000 more in that time than the gas version? Not even close. Even with the new TC, and HOT tune, and CAC hoses, and all the stuff I've done to mine....I'm still WAY under that $2,772 figure. And, now I've got a Jeep that will probably go forever and ever on nothing but oil changes.

Sure, it takes a little work to get a CRD to where you want it. But you can crack that nut anyway you want...and the fact still remains that the diesel is a much better option than gas. This is true in ANY vehicle in which diesel is an option.

So, even without the other costs of CRD ownership, you have to keep it at least 150K (being generous here) TO BREAK EVEN on the added expense of the CRD option???? Oh may, yes, that there is some prime economics. Why do you insist on listing only fuel costs, which is bad enough for killing your arugument? Because listing the true costs makes a CRD purchase look pretty silly from an economic point, a point that CRD'ers try to claim as a plus when it is a huge minus.

A 5K tow limit in todays world is NOT an outstanding tow rating. In fact, it is the exact same as the correctly equipped, 3.7, isn't it? isn't it? They still only have a 104" wheel base and the same braking system and...well, you get the point that towing is in fact an argument that CRD fanboys make that has no basis in reality. I have towed 3K in my 3.7 and it does it with ease: saying you are paying thousands more to do the same thing is probably not the positive that you believe it to be.

racertracer · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:15 am

If you haven't driven a CRD or better yet experienced one, then you can't comment.

Never in my life have I experienced a vehicle like this, it has big coglionis capable of overtaking almost any vehicle on the highway today, leaving the people in awe.

I plan on installing a VM Motori CRD engine in my TJ, it's an incredible engine.

stoutdog · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:29 am

InCommando wrote:

Actually, I am pretty familiar with driving a diesel: you may have missed that I bough a CTD and kept it for 180,000 miles. That is far more miles than the average CRD'er has compiled... The CRD is five years old and there are a handful of owners with over 150k on here. The average American drives 15k/year, which means it will take many upwards of 10-12 years to get to that amount. Not a fair comparison. on a far better engine that required no mods to drive. My CRD drove fine before I did any mods, got 29mpg on the highway. My father's CRD worked great for two years, until it was totaled, and he had never even been on this board. And we've owned plenty of diesels, including CTDs, so we know what to expect. I've already outlined what mods are "necessary," noting that most are for improved performance. Some owners on here run completely stockAnd one that would yield 20 MPG in a nearly 8K pound vehicle. Makes the 2.8 seem like a fuel hog, doesn't it? It's a smaller engine, so no.BTW: My CTD would eat a CRD ALIVE at the drag strip as it would dip into the 16's.... It isn't diesel I am knocking, it is the thankfully short lived CRD KJ. I don't drag race... If I cared even a little bit about racing, I wouldn't have bought a Jeep. Any Jeep. Period. Get an STI or a muscle car.

Yes, it must be a total misrepresentation that CRD owners post and claim that the CRD REQUIRES many mods. hey, they are the one's posting it....I've posted on there as well. Many of those mods that you see as necessary are really recommendations, the Jeep will run without them. Tuning the CRD is no different, or more necessary, than tuning any other diesel on the road. If your hoses are soggy, they need to be replaced... If you have air in the fuel, you need to get a new filter head... You need to unplug the MAF to prevent buildup in the intercooler. Oh, and clean the MAP sensor That's it! Your required mods run for $0 to $3-400, depending. Check the sticked "noob" thread by Sam for details on the required stuff - that is all that we consider necessary. And, as Sam says, it's a Saturday afternoon, one-time deal.

I also do not think someone buying used is any dollars ahead of my new purchase as I have kept my KJ well past the pay-off point. you getting someone to pay for the required mods ( CRD'ers words, not mine) was smart until you need something else for them.I paid for my mods, nobody else did. What do you consider to be the pay-off point? My vehicle was only gently used and cost several thousand dollars less than a Sport model gasser (and half the original asking price). You paid money, I paid money - I likely paid a little less, because I went used, so my cost of ownership starts out that much lower. That's the math. It was a CRD owner that posted in this thread that it takes $3k to make them what they should have been from the factory: no gasser owner made that up. Read your own CRD threads: it is all there. Yes, one person spent that much... great. I bet you somebody bought a 3.7 at some point that immediately blew the engine and cost a few grand to replace. Is that how much it costs to make a 3.7 run like it should have? I have three more CRDs in my family as examples to show that it costs little to nothing to get it up to snuff. Your point?

D.E. has, IIRC, staunchly defended the CRD as well. Right up to the point he had to throw it away for being a pile. The threads should still be there for anyone wanting to check. Some people have bad luck with cars. I'm sure there are plenty of 3.7L KJs that have been trashed for similar reasons. My family has owned three CRDs with nary an issue.

I could just imagine the call to arms that went out to defend the CRD against "attack".

if I wish to drive like a diesel, rev slow and not use RPM's, I can about equal CRD numbers on mileage. And I have posted the results of not going over 1800 RPM except for 6th gear on the highway years ago. Guess what? Forgetting the top 60% of the gassers RPM range will net you 21-22 city and 24-25 highway... That's great, but not a real comparison. 1800RPMs in a gasser does not equate to the same acceleration speed as 1800RPMs in a CRD. I don't have to top 2kRPMs to stay with traffic and I get 26mpg in town. Equivalent acceleration in many gas vehicles would require 3k-3.5kRPMs, depending, so your case is moot. 1800RPMS in a 3.7L would be deathly slow...without the sometimes 50 cent a gallon extra that diesel costs in some areas...and you know that the diesel mark up does it exist. If I lived in an area where diesel fuel costs lost me money, I wouldn't have bought a diesel. Lesson? Know your region.Not to mention that the 2.8 is an unclean little thing with emissions that shame a new diesel. cummins can get a 6BT to pass upcomingmodern emissions without injecting cow piss, yet the less than 1/2 displacement CRD cannot do it with the lower current emissionsThe CRD was pulled because Jeep/Chrysler didn't want to modify it for new emissions standards. It is no worse than any other pre-2007 diesel. Your point?

Either way, the 2.8 crd was an evolutionary dead end that will soon wind up "all gone."

stoutdog · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:38 am

P.S. There are multiple posts on here asking for hard number comparisons. I gave you hard numbers... my cost of ownership per mile is less than that of your average 3.7L. I can't speak for other CRD owners, I don't control their driving style or maintenance schedules, but I gave you facts... numbers... hard data... what have you. INCLUDING the initial purchase price (which, for me, was lower).

You can he said/she said all you like, I gave you the numbers as you asked.

I'll reiterate what others have already said. You own a Jeep, I own a Jeep. My choice of a CRD has no bearing on you, so why do you feel the need to insist that we CRD owners are all wasting our money on a bad experiment? I'm glad you enjoy your 3.7L. Some of you gasser folks have some pretty sweet rigs that do exactly what you want them to do. Great! Wonderful! I feel zero, none, ZILCH need to trash your ride. It is absolutely none of my business.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:21 am

tjkj2002 wrote:

I'm only talking about the CRD,and I'm well aware of the VW TDI issues(there junk).Let's see proof of 100% stock CRD here is the states with 150k+ without major failure.

I used to have respect for your views. But after calling TDI's Junk I know you just don't have a clue :-)r

flman · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:56 am

InCommando wrote:

Yes, it must be a total misrepresentation that CRD owners post and claim that the CRD REQUIRES many mods. hey, they are the one's posting it....

That is like the guys saying you cant go into a trail with out a 4" lift, SFA, big mudder donuts, under armour, tow hooks, a winch and a bunch of other stuff. You cant use what some members do to their Jeeps as a representation of facts. Some of these guys are very anal, and do alot of things that are not really needed, but it is their money and time, and if they want to spend it why should you care? My sig says it all, GDE tunes, they enhance my Jeep, but are not required to make it drive down the road, or through the trail. Besides, I never heard of one CRD dying from not having the "So Called" :roll:

required mods.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:36 am

InCommando wrote:

LibertyCRD wrote:

AZKJ wrote:

An interesting thread indeed.

I may have missed it, but has anyone sat down and crunched ALL of the numbers?? I would like to see the cost of ownership over 100,000 miles for the 3.7L and the CRD? Include gas/diesel, regular maintenance (forget about tires), the talked about mods for the CRD to keep it running, and the expensive of the timing belt change due at 100,000 miles. Then take into account the fact there are a limited number of mechanics that even know that Jeep offered a diesel Liberty, and even less that have worked on them.

Not being knowledgeable about the CRD and all of it's quirks, I would be very curious to see how the numbers stack up and if CRD ownership is really worth it to the "average" person. :?:

Well, using the U.S. averages (that I listed above), just in FUEL ALONE the CRD will save you $2,772 over the gas KJ in 100,000 miles.

So, does the extra maintenance of the CRD cost $3,000 more in that time than the gas version? Not even close. Even with the new TC, and HOT tune, and CAC hoses, and all the stuff I've done to mine....I'm still WAY under that $2,772 figure. And, now I've got a Jeep that will probably go forever and ever on nothing but oil changes.

Sure, it takes a little work to get a CRD to where you want it. But you can crack that nut anyway you want...and the fact still remains that the diesel is a much better option than gas. This is true in ANY vehicle in which diesel is an option.

So, even without the other costs of CRD ownership, you have to keep it at least 150K (being generous here) TO BREAK EVEN on the added expense of the CRD option???? Oh may, yes, that there is some prime economics. Why do you insist on listing only fuel costs, which is bad enough for killing your arugument? Because listing the true costs makes a CRD purchase look pretty silly from an economic point, a point that CRD'ers try to claim as a plus when it is a huge minus.

A 5K tow limit in todays world is NOT an outstanding tow rating. In fact, it is the exact same as the correctly equipped, 3.7, isn't it? isn't it? They still only have a 104" wheel base and the same braking system and...well, you get the point that towing is in fact an argument that CRD fanboys make that has no basis in reality. I have towed 3K in my 3.7 and it does it with ease: saying you are paying thousands more to do the same thing is probably not the positive that you believe it to be.

You are quickly approaching idiot status.

The CRD was only an $1,800 option. For that $1,800 you got more than just the engine...you got alloy wheels, front skid, tow package, etc. There was hardly ANY initial investment cost!!

Second...any time you want to do a trailer towing test, just call me up.

My CRD will eat your gasser alive. I pull 7,000 lbs. and hand calculate 16 MPG. Our gas KJ pulled NO trailer and averaged 16 MPG.

Do some research before you post. Don't be like some of the others.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:17 am

"I'm Gary Busey. I'm frequently aggressive in situations that don't call for it."

Hey Mr. Diesel, Suck on this!

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