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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:21 pm 
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racertracer wrote:
He’s a good friend to have on speed dial and I am sure he regrets giving me his number by now.


He give me is cell number! We suppose to meet around Detroit but I didn't received the parts I order from moparonlineparts.com to fix my tranny (Still waiting for almost 3 weeks now....)

This thead get me on the tips of my chair! You know wen you watch a sport game and they have a chance to score ! Yep you're there waiting to jump! For 9 fracking pages! :5SHOTS:

Come on kid “get ‘er done” ! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:30 am 
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OldSkull wrote:

Come on kid “get ‘er done” ! :mrgreen:



I'm given' her all she's got Capn'.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:06 pm 
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I hate to say it, but I think all of this exercise has come full circle - back to fuel. I see no reason to do a cylinder compression check if there is no knocking when cranking the engine minus the injectors. You mentioned a "mist" coming from one of the injector holes; I'm wondering if the engine is indeed flooded, and the knocking is the resistance of the fuel in the chamber every compression stroke. (Further thought on the knock: it wasn't often enough to be knocking every time the piston came to TDC, it was knocking every OTHER TDC - at the time, it could have been the valvetrain, but with no injectors and no knock, I don't see how it could be the valvetrain or any other mechanical breakage.)

The least common denominator here in this process of elimination is, once again, fuel - be it air in fuel/ vaporlock, or fuel delivery to one or more cylinders. If it's not something mechanically internal to the engine, not the injectors, and not the electronics/ ECM, then the only other component is the fuel pump itself. I'm not sure how to inspect that part for correct operation to rule it out. Anyone know a way to troubleshoot the CP3 besides just run/ no run?

So, my thought is to go back to racertracer's first suggestion - if we can rule out the fuel pump and ECM. Clear the rail of any air, (not sure how to do this?) reinstall and reconnect the injectors, get her running, and let her run.

:juggle:

Keith, is there any way to troubleshoot the ECM itself for correct operation? I agree that the ECM itself frying out would be an uncommon failure, but it is the only other thing I can think of.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:26 pm 
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Hey D,about the mist,I think I might know where that fuel mist came from.
Yesterday I did the cork test and didn't go so well.Fuel was draining from the lines into the cylinder and misting fuel all over.I was turning the engine over for the video and couldn't see fuel leaking from the lines.I'll have to try it again when this rain holds up.
I did manage to drink a nice merlot.Needed a cork,and sure wasn't putting that thing back on the bottle.
Don't forget the noise with injectors in and unplugged(with compression).
What do you know about these fuel pumps?My dad keeps mentioning it.
There was definitely fuel at the rail and injectors.(still don't know why three were wet)
Was there pressure but not high pressure?Not sure,but I blead till fuel came out.
Saturday I asked my dad for a rubber cork,and an hour later he brings me a diesel engine compression kit from harbor freight.I told him that dealing with the glowplugs is not advised.
I looked with a flashlight and couldn't find them.
Could possibly be the ECM.
Injector parts should be in tomorrow.

I'm all ears.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:24 am 
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Maybe 3 injectors were wet because those cylinders were flooded with fuel? That would mean that the cylinder you pulled the dry injector from is the cylinder the engine was running on. Do you remember which cylinder was the one you pulled the dry one from?

It's got to be one of the three: vaporlock/ flooding, failed CP3 pump (but why would the injectors still get fuel if it was bad?) or the ECM.

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245/70/16 Destination A/T's
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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:06 am 
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You can easily rule out the high pressure pump. If the sensor on the rail doesn't see fuel pressure it won't start.

The pump itself is nothing more than that. All it does is put the fuel under pressure. It doesn't care if cyl.1 is in TDC or not. That's a job the ECM has to do.

If it was anything electric, the CEL would have light up or started blinking.

And I would most definately do a compression test now that the injectors are out. Injectors being wet could also be a sign of poor combustion, what also happens if there is little compression.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:41 am 
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KJ 119,

based on your results you completed and understood the point of pinning out the harness, to check if any of them are grounded or shorted between the ecm connector and the injector it'self.

I would 100% swap the ecm if possible as it is a very suspect part at this time.

There is no way that three cyl will suddenly drop compression to the point that they will not fire. Since you have the injectors out use a borescope to check the condition of the liners. If they have a large amout (or any, really) of adhesive wear, that could drop compression significantly, however that would be the result of some other failure, and your non firing problems would at that point be a non issue.

If i were in the shop with your engine (say it came in just like it sits on a tow truck) I would install the tested injectors, disconnect the airbox from the turbo inlet and unplug the glow plug relay harness, I would then attempt to run the engine on ether/starting fluid. If the engine runs on ether then you know it's not a timing issue. After a few moments on ether you can check exhaust manifold with a ir thermometer to look for dead cylinders.

If it does not run on ether you have a timing problem.
During this procedure i would examine the return fuel, looking for excessive air, i would also install a gauge to check rail pressure. (may have to remove the factory sensor)

If rail pressure was not developed to spec (you have to have a minimum pressure to unseat the nozzle at the tip of the injector (called nop), i don't know what that pressure is on the crd, but since the bosch guys said the injectors were good, they are good) then you have a issue with fuel rail pressure (obviously) it is unlikely to be a nop issue because one injector does (did) fire correctly.

I will assume that you have already checked for fuel inlet restriction with a manometer (or similar)
A plugged fuel filter can cause the problem your having but it is usually not so immediate. especially considering that it runs on one cyl,

however i once had a m-11 come in and the first thing we did was swap the fuel filter (standard procedure for hard to start complaint) it proceeded to run on ether and only fire (diesel) on one cylinder.
I swapped the injectors after checking the harness and so forth, that means i removed the overhead removed the injectors and installed known good injectors, reinstalled and ran the overhead, etc etc, guess what? same result. i pulled out the manometer and i had inlet restriction (remember it ran on one cylinder). I was using my own fuel tank and lines (disconnected the chassis lines) so i knew it was not my test equipment. Swapped the filter AGAIN. Started right up. Can you believe that? So i put the customers injectors back in. I only billed him 3 hour. It took me about 6. it's a HUGE pain in the booty to remove the injectors from a m-11 because of the way the rockers and push tubes are set up, you have to set the valve lash (obviously) and since the train is three piece you also have to set the clearances between the rockers themselves. They also have a really pita torque sequence. I never cut the filter open to see exactly wtf was going on (at 150 an hour who would?) I went on to the next one. I've swapped injectors/run the overhead on m-11's so many times i could do it sleeping, I am very intimate with m-11's so it was "easy work"


I work on diesel engines and heavy equipment and the above work would have been preformed before sending the injectors out or testing the harness (not the injector swap but the manometer and ether and return fuel check etc).
On a normal heavy truck these procedures take very little time however on the crd they are not trivial.

In your case simply changing the fuel filter would be the first thing to do but that does not mean that you do not have inlet restriction pre filter, such as the fuel strainer in the tank.

Anyway i thought i would share that frustrating experience with you.

1. change that fuel filter if you have not already
2. swap the ecm if you can
3. keep trying, you have done thousands of dollars worth of work already, and you have learned a lot. I don't think a dealership (jeep) could have done any better, yes you have done some things out of order and wasted some time, what of it?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:29 pm 
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CRDMiller wrote:
1. change that fuel filter if you have not already
2. swap the ecm if you can
3. keep trying, you have done thousands of dollars worth of work already, and you have learned a lot. I don't think a dealership (jeep) could have done any better, yes you have done some things out of order and wasted some time, what of it?


Hey thanks again CRDMiller,I appreciate your input:

1. Got a new filter and fuel head from changingtime,and swapped out the old one,and added an inline fuel pump right by the tank.Worked great for priming.
2. I wonder if Keith can test mine,or should I get geordi's spare and give that a go?....(Keith!)
3.Thanks for the encouraging words.I am learning a lot thanks to you guys.



On a side note,I went to the dealer yesterday to pickup my injector parts and I talked to the service manager to ask if he would rent out the compression tool,and he looked at me and laughed.He said "We only service two diesels,and one is about to be sold.""We don't have any tool like that and probably would not ever be in a position to check compression on that engine,sorry....don't know what to tell ya."

I'm so glad I'm not giving those thieves my money(labor that is).

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Ask the dealer, since they wont be servicing diesels anymore, if he would sell you the VM tool kit. That would be a good thing to have come timing belt time.

My money is still on the flooded cylinders/ vaporlock diagnosis. I can think of no other explanation for 3 injectors wet with fuel and 1 dry one - apparently from the cylinder that was firing.

Give Keith a call, maybe he could troubleshoot your ECM - and install a GDE tune at the same time. . .

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In this war of lines, so many have been crossed. Where will it all stop?

2006 Deep Beryl Green CRD Sport *SOLD 1/22/12*
Provent, V6 Airbox, Fumoto, Samcos, GDE ECO & TCM Tune, Euro JK TC, Magnaflow Catback
245/70/16 Destination A/T's
Boiler's Radiator Skid Plate
Jeepin' By Al 2.5 inch Adjust-A-Strut Lift, JBA Gen 4.5 UCA's (6/5/10)

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:12 pm 
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Bub,

I would suggest reinstalling the injectors, then running a full fuel system bleed ( I can walk you through it) and see if the problem vanishes (that would confirm everyone's fuel theory). I am just about 100% sure it is not the ECM. Dealers like to replace these like oil filters since they get paid well for it, but the only ECMs I have seen failed were due to battery voltage applied to the casing. If the ECM were failed it typically will not release the starter for cranking. It could theoretically be possible to fail an injector driver, but three of them at the same time seems extreme. I only have 1 spare ECU for the 2006KJ and will loan it to you if the fuel proves not to be the issue. Too bad you don't have a 2005 as I have a bunch of these sitting around collecting dust!

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:51 pm 
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Right on guys,I'm shooting to put everything back together on Sunday.
Keith,I'll try calling you on Saturday for a briefing on priming 102.

How about the torque setting for the injector bolts.Also there is a bit of crud where the copper washers seat.Should I try and clean that,or leave it be.
About the borescope,the injector hole is roughly 1/4 inch.Would a borescope fit in something that small?

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:57 pm 
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The fuel injector retention bolts have a torque spec of 24 ft*lb. You can take a long flat head screwdriver and scrap the seating area then try to suck out the residue with a shop vac. If some falls into the chamber it is not a big deal, just keep metal out of it. Be careful with the screwdriver so as not to gouge the head seating area. A smaller style borescope will fit through the injector hole and it would need a flexible end to see the cylinder walls. These are hard to find and not cheap...several thousand dollars for the good ones. The medical industry has some really small ones if you can find a place to rent a unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 12:54 pm 
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Bub,

Good luck getting the beast started today, we're routing for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:06 pm 
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Hey thanks Raff,I just got off the phone with Keith who is about to board a plane home from some BeerFest.
Go Keith :BANANA: ,now we know where all that GDE cash is going. :5SHOTS:
Thanks for the tips on bleeding.

So far I've tried to clean the seats(except #4 :dizzy: ) and vacumed,installed injectors with new copper washers and o-rings,torqued bolts to 24 ft#(seemed miniscule compared to the torque to remove),hooked up all lines and tightened.
Lunch and aspirin then I'm goin' a priming.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 3:14 pm 
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And for goodness sake don't forget about a nerve calming shot of Jack Daniels before you go at it........... That’s a prerequisite for this course :D.


God speed man.

:5SHOTS:

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:56 pm 
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No Dice

I primed the rail good,starting with number 4.Soon as I turned her over,I heard that familiar noise that I haven't heard since pulling the injectors.I primed all 4 good,and removed all of the napkins and gave it a go.Took a minute to turn over,but eventually did.Still knocking like before,so I just let it go.
I ended up getting my scanner,and picked up a PO304-Cyl 4 misfire detected.
Let it run for 20 minutes and finally decided to turn it off with no change in sound.
I'm fairly confident it's not vaporlock

Picked up and cut the grass. :grim:

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 9:33 pm 
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I found this web site regarding troubleshooting problems with starting a diesel motor.

http://www.difflock.com/diesel/troubleshooting.shtml

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:23 pm 
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Bub,

There is one more step that I did to get my CRD to start and I think that you need to consider.

The local FleetGaurd Diesel mechaninc that I asked advice from when I was having trouble with starting my CRD told me to use a small squirt of starting fluid to get all the cylinders to ignite and just let her run. Stay in the cab while the engine runs so that you can quickly shut the engine down if it should start to race up.

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:06 am 
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It already starts and runs so starter fluid is not needed here. (and is bad if used to often)

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 Post subject: Re: Need Divine Intervention!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:38 pm 
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Compression check!


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