Need Divine Intervention!

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:23 pm

tonycrd wrote:

Can you pull the oilpan off? It may be a bearing...

Does Howdy Doodie got wooden balls?

You tell me how and I will do it.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:07 pm

tonycrd wrote:

If you had a piston problem it would let compressed air/ combustion pressure / exhaust fumes pass into the sump. Therefore PCV pressure would rise and you should easily be able to feel / see that if you take the filler cap off. (would look like the exhaust of a one cilinder dirt bike)

Only if you block the regular CCV outlet right? If you have the standard CCV routing to the turbo inlet or to an EHM then there goes most of your blowby and you won't feel much at the oil filler tube. Was the standard CCV outlet blocked when you tried this test?

mdalien · **Joined:** Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:22 pm **Posts:** 41

The loss of noise when #2 quit firing leads me to think a rod bearing.

tonycrd · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:33 am

KJ 119 wrote:

tonycrd wrote:

Can you pull the oilpan off? It may be a bearing...

You tell me how and I will do it.

We should ask Geordi, he did it. I guess it's as easy as taking all the bolts out and then wiggle the sump past the front cradle....but:

I don't know if you can see the conrods with the balance shafts in place. Let's wait to hear what Geordi knows about this.

CATCRD wrote:

tonycrd wrote:

If you had a piston problem it would let compressed air/ combustion pressure / exhaust fumes pass into the sump. Therefore PCV pressure would rise and you should easily be able to feel / see that if you take the filler cap off.

Only if you block the regular CCV outlet right? If you have the standard CCV routing to the turbo inlet or to an EHM then there goes most of your blowby and you won't feel much at the oil filler tube. Was the standard CCV outlet blocked when you tried this test?

If you have a serious blow by due to a broken piston or pistonrings you get so much pressure in the sump it doesn't matter if the CCV is blocked or not. The filler opening provides much less restriction so the fumes/pressure will find an easier escape there then through the ccv valve which is only a 3/8 hole. The filler neck is like 1" in diameter....like I said, it will look like the exhaust of a 1 cilinder bike.

tonycrd · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:02 pm

Uh ow...I think at this point it's easier to take the whole engine out of the JEEP...

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:19 pm

I didn't remove the oil pan on mine in the vehicle... I had it rather forcibly ventilated by the #1 connecting rod leaving its assigned duty station. When I finally got the pan out, the engine was on its side on a pallet. I'm not convinced he needs to pull the pan anyway unless there is more info that I don't know about.

Sorry Bub, but that is a cast-iron you-know-what of a job while in the vehicle. Inside of the pan is a balance shaft assembly (which I have a spare of) that will almost completely prevent removing the pan b/c the cross member is in the way under the pan. STUPID design. The aluminum pan on my Jetta TDI got cracked and needed to be replaced (twice actually) and I was able to do that in the driveway. This... Not so much.

If the bottom of the engine is the problem and you already have the top pulled out (and find out that there isn't anything wrong with the head) then at that point, pulling the whole engine isn't that much more work. I really hope we can figure out what this problem is without pulling the whole thing though.

At one point, you said that the noise seemed like it was from the driver's side toward the bottom, right? Is that still the case? It seems like we are narrowing this down to cylinder #2... If the noise is on the driver's side, maybe now is the time to investigate the glow plugs. I just had a thought about that - The plugs are on the driver's side, relatively easy to get to (versus pulling the whole head) and *might* be a source of a compression leak. I'm not sure what would cause the plug to develop a hole without completely blowing out... But it is possible there was a manufacturing defect in it.

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:22 pm

tonycrd wrote:

Uh ow...I think at this point it's easier to take the whole engine out of the JEEP...

Mabe Howdy Doodie don't have wooden balls.

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:28 pm

geordi wrote:

I didn't remove the oil pan on mine in the vehicle... I had it rather forcibly ventilated by the #1 connecting rod leaving its assigned duty station. When I finally got the pan out, the engine was on its side on a pallet. I'm not convinced he needs to pull the pan anyway unless there is more info that I don't know about.

Sorry Bub, but that is a cast-iron you-know-what of a job while in the vehicle. Inside of the pan is a balance shaft assembly (which I have a spare of) that will almost completely prevent removing the pan b/c the cross member is in the way under the pan. STUPID design. The aluminum pan on my Jetta TDI got cracked and needed to be replaced (twice actually) and I was able to do that in the driveway. This... Not so much.

If the bottom of the engine is the problem and you already have the top pulled out (and find out that there isn't anything wrong with the head) then at that point, pulling the whole engine isn't that much more work. I really hope we can figure out what this problem is without pulling the whole thing though.
Amen to that!

At one point, you said that the noise seemed like it was from the driver's side toward the bottom, right? Is that still the case? It seems like we are narrowing this down to cylinder #2... If the noise is on the driver's side, maybe now is the time to investigate the glow plugs. I just had a thought about that - The plugs are on the driver's side, relatively easy to get to (versus pulling the whole head) and *might* be a source of a compression leak. I'm not sure what would cause the plug to develop a hole without completely blowing out... But it is possible there was a manufacturing defect in it.
Jim,the noise is from the right side down low.
Not low as in from underneath,but loudest bang/percussion in the front grill all the way to the right.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:43 pm

I'm still not convinced that this is internal to the engine - but what do I know? This has never happened to me.

Does anyone know if another 2006 ECU would be plug and play? We could pull mine out and change it over and see if it runs.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:40 pm

It will run... For 3 seconds. The anti-theft system will then cut the engine off for having an incorrect key code match with the ECU. It won't hurt anything to try it for those 3 seconds however.

Bub - You said the farthest-right grill opening. That is the driver's side, yes? If so, that is exactly the side of the engine where the plugs are, and the glow plugs are in a position about level with the grill openings. This could be the reason then!

linewarbr · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:31 am

Would it be worthwhile to check the voltage on the glow plug wires, then?

tonycrd · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:29 am

If you want to check glowplugs first, pull out the #2. See if it broke off and is now logded in your piston...who knows..

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:39 am

tonycrd wrote:

If you want to check glowplugs first, pull out the #2. See if it broke off and is now logded in your piston...who knows..

Thats what I'm saying. I don't think it is inside the piston however, I think that it might have somehow burned a hole past the threads of the GP, OR that the GP is broken off the other way - To the outside and is able to leak compression through the body somehow.

This may not be as bizarre as it sounds. On an otherwise normally-operating gas engine, I had a valve burn a crack through its edge and start losing compression against the valve seat. Why did this happen? There was a tiny defect in the seal due to some defect in the metal, and the heat passing through that had eventually eaten the defect out to be great big and wide. It took almost 180k miles... But there ya go.

There have been several reports on here of problems with the heads such as warping or cracking. Not saying that Bub has a cracked head, but MAYBE there was / is a defect in or around the threads of that glowplug socket that has worked itself to the level of passing a significant amount of compression. When faced with the 16:1 or higher compression of our diesel engines... This is not a small amount of pressure to be pounding on the walls of the cylinder.

This would be an unlikely answer, sure. But after all the easy paths have been taken, the rare stuff becomes possible. Like Yoda told Obi-Wan, sometimes... Sith happens.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:22 am

Man that would be awesome if it turns out to be as simple as replacing a glow plug.

Wait. . . . is #2 the one that you have to take the intake off in order to get to? In that case it will be a matter of "Who does #2 work for. . . ?"

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:33 am

linewarbr wrote:

Man that would be awesome if it turns out to be as simple as replacing a glow plug.

Wait. . . . is #2 the one that you have to take the intake off in order to get to? In that case it will be a matter of "Who does #2 work for. . . ?"

#2 should be able to be reached just by pulling the alternator. You are thinking of #4, where you need to pull the intake elbow and FCV... But if you are digging into that, it wouldn't be the worst idea to seal off that EGR tube to the intake while you are in there, and pull the FCV's throttle disc out. Both are useless parts.

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2010 5:35 pm

linewarbr wrote:

I'm still not convinced that this is internal to the engine.

You will change your mind Saturday.Trust me. :mrgreen:

geordi wrote:

Bub - You said the farthest-right grill opening. That is the driver's side, yes? If so, that is exactly the side of the engine where the plugs are, and the glow plugs are in a position about level with the grill openings. This could be the reason then!

The percussion is loudest in that area,if you listen right above glowplugs over engine the noise isn't as loud.There doesn't seem to be any air leak in that area,but might need closer inspection.
Hey Jim,you some kind of stuntman or something?Whatcha working on?(If it's top secret I'll understand)

Looks like LW might be crashing over Saturday evening for a Saints game chill-n-grill. :pepper:

Sunday,out comes #2 glowplug for inspection.You game D?

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2010 6:26 pm

I'm a production sound mixer on set, which means I would be the guy responsible for all the sound that should be recorded actually getting recorded. At some point I hope to be PAID for this, but at the moment I am still trying to get my first paying gig.

I'm not dissuaded about the sound location you describe, I still think that the glow plug may just be the source of all this misery. It is easy enough to pull it anyway, a LOT easier than pulling the front of the engine off to then pull the head.

keep doing the easy stuff until the only solution is the hard stuff, right?

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:40 pm

geordi wrote:

I'm not dissuaded about the sound location you describe, I still think that the glow plug may just be the source of all this misery. It is easy enough to pull it anyway, a LOT easier than pulling the front of the engine off to then pull the head.

keep doing the easy stuff until the only solution is the hard stuff, right?

Never a wiser word hath been spoken.

Allen M. · **Posted:** Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:27 pm

Could it be that the ECU is overfueling the #2 Cylinder?

linewarbr · **Posted:** Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:06 pm

Hey, I'm over at Bub's house and saw this for myself. The engine is idling "fine" - as in the right speed - no smoke, nothing crazy, except for the loud knocking. Seriously, when I first heard it, I was almost afraid to put my face close to the front because I was expecting a connecting rod to come flying out and brain me.

But that's the mystery - the sound is coming from the front-driver's side of the engine. To me, it doesn't seem to be coming from the engine itself, unless it is coming from under the timing cover. Is there anything under the timing cover that could produce this type of loud knocking? It is definitely not far back enough to be a glowplug allowing air to escape.

We tried the screwdriver-as-a-stethoscope method, and putting it on the valve cover, the timing cover, and just behind the timing cover, all you hear is the normal diesel purr and clicking of valves through the screwdriver. Pulled codes, and the only stored codes in the ECU were from Bub trying the disconnect-the-injectors method of isolation.

If one of the accessory pullies failed, or the fan clutch, would it produce this noise?

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