Need Divine Intervention!

linewarbr · **Posted:** Sat Aug 21, 2010 8:27 pm

Ok. . . . EDIT.

So. . . we decided to see what it did under a little bit of load, since it was idling fine. (Of course still knocking loudly though) Drove it up the street, turned around and came back - and when Bub gave it a little gas to accelerate, it made a different, valve-chattering and deeper noise, and the engine bogged. When we got back to the driveway, we noticed that the street was full of light-colored smoke. Lots of it. (It may have had some bluishness, but it was not the black smoke of overfueling, for sure.) We saw a trail of orange liquid that we thought was coolant, so we removed the engine skid to see if there was coolant pouring out of the head or something. The liquid turned out to be just water mixed with red clay under the bumper skid that had collected since the Jeep has been sitting up, but gave us an up-close and personal look at the bottom of the engine.

There are no visible leaks or other sign of breakage. If it is internal, it has not caused the engine to throw a rod or otherwise send something out of the crankcase.

We scanned it afterwards, and it was P0304 Cylinder 4 Misfire, which in this case I am assuming means the frontmost cylinder, since that is where the noise is most prevalent, and that is the cylinder most affected by the cutout test, where you disconnect the injectors one at a time.

Is it time to check this beast into the nearest Cummins/ Sprinter shop? :dizzy:

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 21, 2010 10:39 pm

Out of curiosity Bub, you do have the correct oil and amount in there, right?

This is starting to sound more like what mine sounded like... Before the #1 connecting rod came through the oil pan. Mine idled OK, it had been making a noise (a ticking) that went away after about 30 minutes of idling, and when I took it on the test drive (10 miles) it started making more noise, then a LOT more noise. I was just in the motion of shutting it off when it blew through the oil pan.

I don't want this to happen to ANYONE else. Best guess on mine is that b/c the turbo failed and allowed the oil pressure to leak out, the #1 cylinder starved for oil and that is what killed the bearings and connecting arm. The bearing on the crankshaft end was GONE. G-O-N-E. When I pulled the bottom apart, there wasn't anything in the #1 rod at the crank, and the bearing on the #2 looked like it was in the process of being squeezed out the SIDES of the bottom of the connecting rod. Obviously a lack of lubrication caused massive overheating of those bearing surfaces.

I really hope this isn't the case for you, but right now, I'm thinking pulling the head is the next logical step. Oog, sorry buddy.

linewarbr · **Posted:** Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:46 pm

Seems like this is 99.999% sure to be internal to the engine. The only question now is whether it is up top, in the valves, and the knocking sound is compression going across a valve path it is not supposed to, or whether the knock is down low, either a bearing or connecting rod gone bad. The fact that the engine has continued to run for relatively long periods of time, and run under load without crapping a rod, at least is a positive sign that it is in the valvetrain rather than down low. Maybe an oil analysis can shed some light on what components have been damaged.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Aug 21, 2010 11:55 pm

LW, That could be a step, but realistically... What will it change? I think at this point the head needs to come off. Even if the bottom IS the problem, the head needs to come off anyway before pulling the bottom.

bakersoil · **Joined:** Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:43 am **Posts:** 68

If cylinder 4 is at fault why would it cause the most difference in a cutout test? Wouldnt hurt to pull the belt and run it for a few to see if noise is coming from accessories but I dont think thats it. What oil filter do you use and how often do you change the oil? Is the knock a deep tone and does it change with engine load? A valve train problem should make pretty much the same noise at all engine loads. A rod or wrist pin knock should change with engine load. I know of a 5.9 cummins that plugged the piston oiler hole with paper from cheap Fram oil filters. If the rod bearing is shot you should be able to find metal in the oil filter or engine oil with a magnet. Also the oil pressure light should come on if the bearing is bad enough.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:35 pm

bakersoil wrote:

Also the oil pressure light should come on if the bearing is bad enough.

I have to disagree on this point. Even after ejecting a full gallon of oil into the exhaust when my turbo failed, the idiot light for the oil pressure NEVER came on. I believe this is another design flaw in the CRD, in where Chrysler chose to locate the sensor - Directly opposite the outlet of the oil filter. At such a location, 100% of the oil flow hits that sensor FIRST, before it makes a 90 degree turn and goes elsewhere into the engine. You would have to be beyond critically-low on oil before the pump would not have enough oil to push through the filter at that sensor.

This is a REALLY bad location for that sensor, and it cannot be trusted to do anything, sadly.

bakersoil · **Joined:** Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:43 am **Posts:** 68

Sounds just like Chrysler. Ate up with it! Anyone want an 06 with 93k on the clock?

mcinfantry · **Posted:** Sun Aug 22, 2010 9:38 pm

Ok, just saw the thread.
You need fuel, compression and air to run.

My cummins 4 has been giving me fits too. Unfortunately/fortunately I am becoming better at diagnosis.

I was too busy cutting trees on Saturday to remember... You need an infrared heat gun to try and determine what cyl is the problem.

The borescope I sent should have helped, but I realize your situation.

When you disconnect the injectors, If you hear a difference then the corresponding cyl is firing. If not, start looking at valves, valve keepers, glow plugs, or pistons.

Without reading the entire thread, is there a compression or blowby test we can run?

My shop is jammed up, but if I can make room we could tow it up here......

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

The injection pump is in the area you described. Maybe the pump failed one of the plungers...would be a very rare problem. If it is the pump, the timing cover needs to come off next.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:18 am

Keith, that mirrors one of my earlier suppositions, but was shot down by the reply of "Why would it then behave differently when disconnecting individual injectors" from someone.

Truthfully... I don't have an answer for that one. Do you? Admittedly, my knowledge of the injection pump is limited to "Fuel goes in one side at low pressure, and comes out the other as both a fuel return and REALLY HIGH pressure. For all I know, in between those two points... Tiny Diesel Gnomes are operating plungers to make the fuel high pressure.

You and the wizards of GDE have done a LOT more with these engines. Is it possible that a pump failure COULD make the rail behave unevenly like that?

mcinfantry · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:35 am

I am familiar, albeit limited, with rotary and inline injection pumps. Am I correct in that our injector pumps are a third type, or common rail?

So if one injector is working, then the pump is providing proper pressure for all to use?

So if the code reader says injector 4 misfire, then if the injector tests fine, then the control board may be bad?

tonycrd · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:11 am

Light colored smoke is unburned fuel. Deep blue is burned oil...

Bub, can you get a real mechanic's stethescope?

Then you can really hear where the knock is coming from. All we are doing now is guessing.

mcinfantry · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:23 am

tonycrd wrote:

Light colored smoke is unburned fuel. Deep blue is burned oil...

Light/white for me has always been air or water in fuel.
Black unburned fuel
Blue is oil.

tonycrd · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:55 am

Yes, black (sooth) is too much fuel. But it is not unburned.

Let's say the #1 cilinder has no compression. So then there is no combustion. But I do have fuel injection going on. Unburned fuel is pumped in the exhaust where it mixes with hot fumes from the other cilinders that do work, due to the heat evaporates and creates ...

Light colored smoke.

(also happens when a glow plug is out at cold start up)

IMO it is not the hp pump. It would make a different noise and the fuel injectors would have had metal chips inside them. And if you disconnect #2 the noise changes.

Bosch CP3 pump

I think it's time to make a resume of what has been done and what Bub has figured out sofar.

mcinfantry · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:09 am

tonycrd wrote:

Yes, black (sooth) is too much fuel. But it is not unburned.

Let's say the #1 cilinder has no compression. So then there is no combustion. But I do have fuel injection going on. Unburned fuel is pumped in the exhaust where it mixes with hot fumes from the other cilinders that do work, due to the heat evaporates and creates ...

Light colored smoke.

IMO it is not the hp pump. It would make a different noise and the fuel injectors would have had metal chips inside

Got it!

tonycrd · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:34 am

Bub, take a look at the T belt timing. If it's ok, we can rule that out too.

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:48 pm

WOW guys,thanks for hanging in there and being my beacon of light.I've been busy working on my newly aquired 1993 Toyota Camry

.
Brakes,rotors,master cylinder :banghead:

OK,back to the Jeep.So,after that trot down the street with LW( :grim:

),I am going to have to agree with you guys.It's time to open ole' girl up.

Anyone know a good thread to get me familliar with what needs to be done to get that dern cover off?

bakersoil wrote:

Sounds just like Chrysler. Ate up with it! Anyone want an 06 with 93k on the clock?

Mine's only got 52k,I'll trade you straight up. :ROTFL:

KJ 119 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:34 pm

bakersoil wrote:

If cylinder 4 is at fault why would it cause the most difference in a cutout test?
Is cylinder 4 clostest to the front of jeep(injector#1)?
Wouldnt hurt to pull the belt and run it for a few to see if noise is coming from accessories but I dont think thats it. What oil filter do you use and how often do you change the oil?
Puralator Pure 1 with Mobil1 0W-40,and 1quart of Lucas synthetic oil stabilizer since it left the showroom floor.
Is the knock a deep tone and does it change with engine load? A valve train problem should make pretty much the same noise at all engine loads. A rod or wrist pin knock should change with engine load. I know of a 5.9 cummins that plugged the piston oiler hole with paper from cheap Fram oil filters. If the rod bearing is shot you should be able to find metal in the oil filter or engine oil with a magnet. Also the oil pressure light should come on if the bearing is bad enough.
Knock is a loud bang,and with load(taking it up the street and back)there was a different chattering all over this thing to add to the noise.To be honest I was glad to make it back to the house without exploding.

mcinfantry wrote:

My shop is jammed up, but if I can make room we could tow it up here......
Elahwtuogub,thanks for chiming in.If this was a tranny service,I'd take you up on that offer in a heartbeat,but if I bring this thing over yonder in the shape it's in....I'll have two wives looking to kill me. :shock:

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

The injection pump is in the area you described. Maybe the pump failed one of the plungers...would be a very rare problem. If it is the pump, the timing cover needs to come off next.
Roger that good buddy.

tonycrd wrote:

Bub, can you get a real mechanic's stethescope?

Then you can really hear where the knock is coming from. All we are doing now is guessing.

Hey Tony,I almost went and picked one up the other day when LW was over.I'll have to pass by and pick one up and give it a go.

tonycrd wrote:

Bub, take a look at the T belt timing. If it's ok, we can rule that out too.10-4 Tony.

mcinfantry · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:51 pm

There is NO WAY I would open that up in your driveway until October. Its TOO hot.

We can put it in the garage.......

linewarbr · **Posted:** Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:49 pm

I've been thinking about something Lee said yesterday when I brought back the scope and scanner. I'm thinking that we've been looking at the cylinder cutout test backward.

If there is no change in idle, minus a second of "bogging" on the two rear injectors, then those cylinders aren't firing at all. If the knock lessens when you pull the second-closest injector, then it is firing, but maybe only on two valves. (?) The engine seemed to struggle the most when the front-most injector was disconnected, so that piston is doing the majority of the work, with #2 knocking but also doing some work.

All of that points to a valve problem.

The question then is what would cause the valvetrain on multiple cylinders to fail? Timing is the logical guess.

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