Increased aluminium in UOA

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

I just got my latest UOA back from Blackstone and the aluminum and cooper were up. I have been doing a 10K OCI with UOA every other change. Al = 26, copper = 5. Viscosity was slightly low too. Everything else looked good including the other wear metals. Blackstone mentioned that the increase Al could be a scuffed piston. I'm gonna re-check at 8K next oil change. 74K on the clock. Any thoughts?

bakersoil · **Joined:** Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:43 am **Posts:** 68

The only place aluminum could come from is a piston. Copper would be rod, main or cam bearing. Being diluted or thin is a sign of incomplete combustion from blowby or washdown past the rings.

flman · **Posted:** Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:16 pm

So what are you going to do about it besides worry? Tear down the engine? I am glad I don't do them tests. :ALONE:

JL Rockies · **Posted:** Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:51 pm

Seems complicated....

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:53 am

flman wrote:

So what are you going to do about it besides worry? Tear down the engine? I am glad I don't do them tests. :ALONE:

X2

linewarbr · **Posted:** Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:44 am

Do another UOA on your next OCI, and shorten it to 5000 miles. That should give you a better idea of how fast it is wearing and allow you to prepare your budget for an overhaul - or a trade-in.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:16 am

UOA is all about trends and keeping the variables to a minimum. Your numbers aren't that high. Honestly, you would be better off discussing this with either Blackstone or a oil forum. The only thing in UOA that would necessitate an immediate repair,IMHO, would be fuel or coolant in the oil. Unless you had some crazy high metal numbers, which you do not have.

CRDMiller · **Posted:** Fri Sep 03, 2010 7:35 pm

One uoa does not a trend, make.
I would reduce interval to say 7k and carry on.

At caterpillar, we are trained that elevated copper does not indicate worn bearings, as the copper is so thin it does not show up on a uoa.

Typical copper bond is only one ten-thousandths of an inch thick. (0.0001 inch)
This topic is covered in detail.

Referenced; Cat part number SESV8001 (December 2000) (Applied failure analysis; Main and rod bearings)

I am going to link to a pdf copy of this book, temporarily.
http://db.tt/ZVnLEmn

To the laymen, this book alone is not particularly useful, if your interested in this stuff, i suggest CAT SERV# 8013 8017 8014 8015 and Metallurgy Fundamentals; Ferrous and Nonferrous, Daniel A. Brandt and J.C. Warner ISBN 9781605250793

This is just the intro stuff so I consider it advertising for Caterpillar. Their AFA classes are amazing and you can spend years taking all three levels. I do not think any other company in the world has this kind of knowledge. This is not exactly the kind of stuff the guy down at Firestone was taught.

bakersoil · **Joined:** Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:43 am **Posts:** 68

If copper doesnt come from a bearing where does it come from? .001" thick across the whole surface of the bearing or bearings could put alot of copper in the oil.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:16 pm

linewarbr wrote:

Do another UOA on your next OCI, and shorten it to 5000 miles. That should give you a better idea of how fast it is wearing and allow you to prepare your budget for an overhaul - or a trade-in.

That is why so many vehicles get such a bad rep,most will dump a vehicle instead of fixing and pass the problem to the next owner that comes to these forums and complain.

flman · **Posted:** Sun Sep 05, 2010 6:51 am

tjkj2002 wrote:

That is why so many vehicles get such a bad rep,most will dump a vehicle instead of fixing and pass the problem to the next owner that comes to these forums and complain.

My vehicles will be running till they die or I sell them as is, ignorance is bliss. I kind of doubt a big percentage of used vehicle buyers are getting vehicles with the bad Blackstone results. :ROTFL:

I am sure Blackstone did not have little 4 bangers and V8s in mind when they started this testing, it was for fleet, commercial and industrial use where millions of dollars were at stake. But I am sure they will gladly take your money, and it keeps their help busy. So keep on testing, because I am sure my results are not all that different, so it is like a free test to me, every time some one post the results. And my CRDs are getting the 10K oil changes for better or worse. That money spent on analysis could easily be put towards more frequent oil changes, which you end up doing any ways.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:35 pm

Tinman wrote:

I just got my latest UOA back from Blackstone and the aluminum and cooper were up. I have been doing a 10K OCI with UOA every other change. Al = 26, copper = 5. Viscosity was slightly low too. Everything else looked good including the other wear metals. Blackstone mentioned that the increase Al could be a scuffed piston. I'm gonna re-check at 8K next oil change. 74K on the clock. Any thoughts?

Remember, you can get a oil sample w/o changing the oil. just open the plug, get a sample and close her up. I would recommend doing this every 2-3k miles on this oil change if you suspect a problem. Can't hurt to monitor things closer adn more frequent to make sure things are good or find out if things are not.

- Mark

CRDMiller · **Posted:** Mon Sep 06, 2010 8:29 pm

The primary source for copper in uoa is an oil cooler.

also 0.0001 is not 0.001

If you have ever seen worn main bearings, you would also know that we are not talking about the entire surface of a bearing, only a small percent of a bearing is going to wear in normal operation.

We do in frames when we see ALUMINUM with high mileage. The tin flash, lead, and copper layers are going to wear normally, when we get to aluminum it's time to swap them. 40-50 ppm of anything would not bother me, the crd has a small sump. I do uao on the crd for fun, and will continue to do so.

Yes you may see copper, but if were talking about more than 2-5 ppm your talking about a source other than a bearing. You would see a doo doo load of lead/tin and aluminum as well

Since were talking about asperities and adhesive wear were also going to get secondary abrasive wear at that point and your going to start seeing chromium from the rings, and elevated FE from the liners, and your going to have a filter full of shiny.

Bottom line, do not worry about it. If your looking for fuel/insolubles/potassium and tbn/tan then carry on. if your just looking for elevated wear then i'd say dont pay for em.

Anyway with your "high" aluminum i would consider any cold start loading, pistons are cam ground and when not run at operating temp, can scuff. Some scuffing is normal. I dont know that our skirts are made of aluminum, i only know that the FSM states that we have a floating wrist pin, that's it, that does not mean anything. It could be a two piece or a mono therm.

Kepe testing if you want, dont worry about 26 ppm of al

onthehunt · **Posted:** Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:37 am

Quote:

so it is like a free test to me, every time some one post the results.

Uhh, not really...

I'm sure there are some early Duramax and 6.0 owners that would disagree. UOA is not for everyone and ignorance is bliss.

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

Thanks for all the input. I really wasn't all that worried about it, but I thought it'd be good to add to the knowledge base here. I'll just watch it and keep everyone posted. After doing UOA for a few years, I've seen a few oddities like this pop up then go away. I do UOA b/o I do things that aren't recommended for the engine, in this case extended OCI. I think it's good to keep a close eye on things if you are doing things the engineers don't recommend. For instance, on my 06 Dodge, I ran into increased soot in my oil which is probably from the programmer and hp I'm running. So I've made some changes. UOA don't make me worry any more that just reading these boards to begin with. :lol:

flman · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:22 am

onthehunt wrote:

Quote:

so it is like a free test to me, every time some one post the results.

Uhh, not really...

I'm sure there are some early Duramax and 6.0 owners that would disagree. UOA is not for everyone and ignorance is bliss.

That's OK, I would not own a Dmax :roll:

bakersoil · **Joined:** Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:43 am **Posts:** 68

I have seen many bearings and built many engines. I founded and ran an aircraft engine manufacturing business for 15 years. I have seen far more copper on rod bearings of 289 Ford than you describe for Cats. They do wear all the way around when they are shot. Are you saying that the oil cooler wears and puts copper in the oil? I cant see worrying about the oil tests. I dont think anyone is going to do a preventative maintenance rebuild on their engine.

Tinman · **Joined:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:45 am **Posts:** 308

In reguards to copper, it comes up periodially on the other diesel forum I troll (TDR) and it is supposed to be from the oil cooler. I don't remember why, but the is something in the Cummins lirerature about it. Nothing to worry about. I don't know about this engine but in this UOA the wear metals were fine so I don't think this copper level has anything to do with wear.

flman · **Posted:** Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:21 pm

bakersoil wrote:

I have seen many bearings and built many engines. I founded and ran an aircraft engine manufacturing business for 15 years. I have seen far more copper on rod bearings of 289 Ford than you describe for Cats. They do wear all the way around when they are shot. Are you saying that the oil cooler wears and puts copper in the oil? I cant see worrying about the oil tests. I dont think anyone is going to do a preventative maintenance rebuild on their engine.

Right, keep your maintenance up, if it blows up, you did the best you could, get another one :SOMBRERO:

onthehunt · **Posted:** Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:08 am

I believe he means the oil cooler is made with copper and the engine oil leeches it. D-max's are notorious for this.

Increased aluminium in UOA

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