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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:11 pm 
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chrismc wrote:
flman wrote:
dieseldoesit wrote:
flman, why did you only partial quote him, and then state the same thing he did?

1 Do your really think I read every thing he writes?

:banghead: That explains a lot of why I felt like I was talking to a brick wall. Not reading things is an excellent way to gain an understanding of a scientific field in which you are not a professional. Its also a very effective and productive way to debate a topic. Who needs to produce a counterpoint when you don't know what the point is to start with!


LOL, all the Pro government, phony pollution problem, blame the manufacture posts, in the entire world are not going to sway me any ways, and that has always been your main point, so you might as well bang your head on a brick wall. I am a Libertarian Capitalist, and you aint gonna change me. :SOMBRERO: :ROTFL: :BANANA: :-)r

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 5:43 pm 
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flman,

that explains a lot..cheers..

when you decide to open your mind to differing opinions then we can have a discussion. a closed mind is like a closed parachute to a sky diver that's jumped from a plane.

-dkenny

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:02 pm 
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dkenny wrote:
flman,

that explains a lot..cheers..

when you decide to open your mind to differing opinions then we can have a discussion. a closed mind is like a closed parachute to a sky diver that's jumped from a plane.

-dkenny


Oh, so that means only you and a few others can keep your closed liberal minds, but my mind must be open. That sounds like a bunch of B$ :juggle:

"If every one is thinking alike, then no one is thinking" General George Patton

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 8:34 pm 
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except that I'm not LIBERAL..sorry..
and my mind is open.

before you get concerned about the cost to upgrade a fuel system for biodiesel compatibility you might want to run one on biodiesel..maybe even make you own..you might learn something.

cheers

-dkenny

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:16 pm 
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Quote:
(and about the "broken exhaust manifold" they assume I have since they don't know its a straight-piped diesel).


That's not very green...

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 9:23 pm 
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onthehunt wrote:
Quote:
(and about the "broken exhaust manifold" they assume I have since they don't know its a straight-piped diesel).

That's not very green...

How do you figure? All of the emissions equipment is still intact. Plus, a more free-flowing exhaust *might* improve fuel economy (although I've never seen conclusive proof of that on the CRD).

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:51 am 
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chrismc wrote:
onthehunt wrote:
Quote:
(and about the "broken exhaust manifold" they assume I have since they don't know its a straight-piped diesel).

That's not very green...

How do you figure? All of the emissions equipment is still intact. Plus, a more free-flowing exhaust *might* improve fuel economy (although I've never seen conclusive proof of that on the CRD).


It is noise pollution, do you still have the cat? And what about your plans to disable the EGR?

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Last edited by flman on Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:57 am 
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dkenny wrote:
except that I'm not LIBERAL..sorry..
and my mind is open.

before you get concerned about the cost to upgrade a fuel system for biodiesel compatibility you might want to run one on biodiesel..maybe even make you own..you might learn something.

cheers

-dkenny


This thread was not about Bio, it is about DPF. The Greenies think Washington it helping us with all its regulation. I was wondering why Washington is not encouraging Bio instead of regulation and expensive emission controls? If I could buy some Bio I would, I am not going to make it, I buy what makes my vehicles run.

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:53 am 
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I understand you're pain Chrismc. I've been in a number of discussions on there and yes, it's like talking to a brick wall in most cases.

Personally, I feel the role of government is to defend it's people and look after their welfare...which can be defined in many ways, but by this I mean well-being. I'm not always a fan of all regulations, but I try to have an understanding of why they were put in place. As as Chrismc indicated, the regulations are made without specifying to the manufacturers how to meet them. The smartest ones determine the "best way" to do it and then patent it. In some cases, this will be a bit of a hinderance to others to overcome that until the figure out the "next best thing" or just license it from the first company.

The world would be a very different place without the EPA. It is an organization that is needed. Some of there efforts or regulations may fall on the extreme side, but I'm glad they're around. Regulations and requirements can always be changed. I don't necessarily like all of the ones they have either. However, it is has been proven time and again, corporations don't undertake an effort on their own volition unless there is significant money to be made. The aspect of moral responsible avoiding activities that harm the health and welfare of environment and organisms that live within it aren't even a second thought it seems. EPA haters should at the very least, take it upon themselves to read "Silent Spring" by (I think) Rachael Carson. If they still hate the EPA after that, then so be it.

Perhaps the greatest challenge for a scientist or engineer is the being able to disseminate complicated information to the public in a manner it can be understood. When I was in graduate school, I could explain my project to my parents. I could tell them about the hoped-for application, but things didn't work out and my research morphed into a project about physical organic chemistry studying the mechanisms of formation of diradicals through experimentation and through modeling to help guide our thoughts about the possible and most plausible mechanisms. For them to understand or even appreciate what I was doing, it would have required me to teach them at least a semester's worth of chemistry.

Chrismc, I feel you again in terms of our matriculation. My parents were around and involved in terms of encouragement, but getting a higher education was a personal and individual experience for me. My mom didn't finish her freshman year of high school and Dad was a high school graduate. They had the minimal in terms of science and math classes. I was the one who helped me with my homework. They were there for encouragement to require my brother and I to do the best we could in school. So, I completely understand how insulting it is when some jerk whips the "ivory tower crap" when it comes to someone obtaining an education and earning...yes it is earning, this stuff isn't given...a PhD. I grew up in rural KY and worked hard to get to where I am now. ...by the way, I went to Rolla...kinda miss Missouri at times. More power to you bro'.

Science isn't easy. The job of research is to gather data and try to make sense of it. Very few things are yes or no. We strive to design experiments in such a way that we get "yes" and "no" answers. However, depending on the thing being studied, it's not usually that simple. We oftentimes end up gathering a lot of data, deciphering it, and then finding that the results are shades of gray. Making sense of it is a major challenge. What causes problems and many of the arguments is how one handles the data. Some take out certain parts or refine it some way. Removing outlier or just failed measurements is justifiable. The biggest problem is when someone has an agenda and slants the data to promote their agenda. Someone that is true to the science, and we're in the majority and is why we're in the field for the first place, does not do this. As a matter of fact, it is an efficient way to damage ones reputation or lose their credentials. A very blatant case is Jan Hendrik Schon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6n_scandal). Science is junk when it is made up. Disagreeing with the plausible conclusions of the science does not make it junk. One can show some people data that clearly indicates a result, and then only to have those individuals choose not to believe that data because it is not a result they wish to occur.

The topic of Climate change is one of areas that's not black and white. There is a much gray and causation of the change could be a combination of factors. Personally, I subscribe to the anthroprogenic side. I think we should be doing things in a "cleaner" manner so as not ot make the situation worse. Climate is a slippery slope. Once, and if, sufficiently altered, getting things back to the way they "should be" will require orders of magnitude more effort than the preventative measures.

In terms of soot and nitrogen oxides...and no Warp, the problem isn't nitrous oxide. It's nitrogen oxides in general. Nitrous oxide refers to a particular oxidation state and compound. It is laughing gas or the stuff people put in high performance engines. The regulations are geared toward reducing nitrogen oxides in general, not just that one particular compound. When one continually gets the terminology wrong rants and raves that they are an expert on the subject, they lose credibility. The issue with soot is that it has components of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. These compounds are known carcinogens. The smaller the particle, the worse because the more deeply it can go into the lung and become permanently trapped.

George Burns lived to ~100 becauses of genetics, not because smoking in general isn't bad for you. When one smokes, they imbibe polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs). The issue with these structures is that they can form very stable (long-lived) free radicals because they can delocalize the unpaired electrons throughout their structure by resonance. The issue is when they enter the body, that compound will evenutally do chemistry with something in the body. That free radical, or unpaired electron, on the PAH desires to be paired with another electron. It will eventually abstract a hydrogen atom from a strand of DNA which results in chain-scission of that strand. This may get repaired or the cell simply is not longer viable and dies. The cell death is preferable. In the cases where the cell survives, the immune system may notice that cell is different from what it should be and will cull it from the healthy ones...or it could live to reproduce. This process could ultimately result in cancer. It becomes about the laws of probability and averages and how well one's body addresses free radicals. George Burns' body apparently handled them and mutant cells well. My uncle who died at 59 and grandmother before him who died in her early sixties from lung cancer from 30-40 years of smoking demonstrate to me that my family line lacks the genetics to allow us to live for 100 years while smoking for the majority of them. If one goes with the average, they should conclude that smoking is bad for you. However, the population fits a bell curve...some people seemingly get by with it while others die at a relatively young age.

Citing data to support ones views in a scientific discussion is customary. Warp, you are probably the biggest offender when it comes to making statements of great certainty while bashing other's thoughts/opinions/facts with great certainty without presenting a shred of evidence for doing so. The cop out, "I don't have to post it because it is up to everyone else to find where I get my information because it's not my job to back up what I say and the burden of proof lies on those who disagree with me and if they aren't willing to do it they must be certainly be lazy" argument detracts from any shred of credibility you have. I am so shocked at times by some of the things you and others present that I wouldn't even know where to begin trying to find the stuff to validate it. It's so far out there on the fringe of anything having a semblance of reality that it's a waste of my time to even bother looking. If you want people to give any credance to what you have to say, at the very least, you should cite your sources. Otherwise, you're just making it up...for all I know, you could be a "smoking acid using hippie" yourself and you could be just conjuring all of this up.

Chrismc...I admire your fortitude on this one. I would have given up way before now. I think there are more who agree with you than you're being given credit for. I bought the CRD because of the mileage the diesel engine would provide. I refused to buy a vehical that got under 20 mpg per gallon. I've never actually driven a gas Liberty. I considered a hybrid Escape, but early on, people where having many problems with the electronics. I wanted something 4-wheel or all-wheel drive for the snows in MI. If it wasn't wasn't for the CRD, I would have considered a Subaru or Audi A4 more seriously...can't tow much with those though.

Differences of opinion are fine and actually welcome, but continually presenting half-baked theories and explanations without some supporting evidence leads to threads like this.


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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:21 pm 
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So tell me kdlewis1975, do you feel that the EPA has done enough or do they need to do more to clean the internal combustion engine? Like I said, the PVC valve and electronics in engines have cleaned them up 90%+. I would not say I want the air to be full of smog, but it seems they have achieved their objective say 10 or 20 years ago. I would not consider the USA to be a polluted country, do you? How much further must this go? How much more should us consumers have to pay? Seems to me, government should be working on alternative energies that we already have, rather then taking the support money of big oil.

As long as the EPA employees want a job, the air will be never clean enough. As long as politicians are taking money from big oil, we will never have alternative energy sources. In the mean time, keep paying for it.

And thanks for the article on Jan Hendrik Schon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sch%C3%B6n_scandal

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Last edited by flman on Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:47 pm 
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flman wrote:
I was wondering why Washington is not encouraging Bio instead of regulation and expensive emission controls? If I could buy some Bio I would, I am not going to make it, I buy what makes my vehicles run.

Its not an either...or situation (either biodiesel or regulation). Biodiesel and government emissions regulations address different problems.

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:55 pm 
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Working for a company that produces Water Purification Equipment we stand to make a lot of money off the upcoming regulations. Correct me if I am wrong, but fiman will also make money off new regulations that will effect the HAVC industry.
Very few of us in the Water Purification Industry including my companies competitors and those who use the equipment do anything less than an outstanding job. US, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zeland, Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and many other countries operate respectable water and waste water treatment systems. Other developing countries are rapidly catching up to very good standards.
The problem with the EPA is that no mater how good it is it is never good enough and they want to have us go beyond doing an outstanding job that is way beyond reality. When this has to be done, it will cost a lot of money that we all will pay for dearly. When I travel for my work, I hear this from every town, factory, contractor operator, and many Consulting Engineers.
One example is that even 8 years ago the level of copper coming out of the waste water plant had to be 7 times lower than what was coming out of the kitchen faucet, run the discharge effluent through Alum and presto excess copper is gone and the Alum seller makes easy money.
In all honesty the term Acid Head Hippies is not far off course, they are out of control and making their dreams, nightmares, or bad trips into a reality. Perhaps litigation and the Courts will reign in their over reaching grasp for unbridled power. We all want clean water and air, but we don't want our grandchildren dieing from a walk through the woods because there immune system has no resistance to plant dust because the EPA ruled it to be a toxic pollutant and had it eliminated from the environment. A line needs to be drawn where the EPA and CARB can not cross over with out breaking the law and then if they do, they should be prosecuted, convicted, and if found guilty imprisoned.

People like myself, people in my industry and members like fiman see the Environmental Regulation Political Agenda for what it is, a scam so those who can, will make a lot of money. When it comes to Politicians, we end up with the ones that are bought and paid for by those who have the big money. When a grassroots movement comes along that the big money does not own lock, stock, and barrel, they fire up their mongers in the news media and demonize the opponent.
As far as my publications go, everything I publish is copyrighted and property of my Employer and distributed to those who need to know.

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Last edited by warp2diesel on Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 6:58 pm 
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warp2diesel wrote:
Working for a company that produces Water Purification Equipment we stand to make a lot of money off the upcoming regulations. Correct me if I am wrong, but fiman will also make money off new regulations that will effect the HAVC industry.


LOL, the prices of freon have gone up 10X higher then the should have, what does that do to my profit margin, you guessed it, 10X higher :BANANA: :pepper:

I guess I need to think about the positive some times too, even if it is hurting the average consumer, another good thing out of Washington has been, stocks at bottom, buy em now, sell them when we get rid of the current cartel :BANANA: :pepper:

Any ways, is there some type of new regulation coming up for refrigeration guys that I don't know about, so we can make a bundle, and the poor consumer can pay for it in food price and the cost of HVAC equipment. Speaking of, the SEERS were increased a few years again, yup, helped my bottom line again, while poor Joe home owner had to shell out more money, it increased my profit margin. Not too mention this higher efficiency equipment is larger in physical size, but not out put, that means less product on the trucks, and more diesel fumes for the multiple truck loads.

Another one was the energy tax credit scheme, if the consumer purchased ultra high efficiency equipment, they would get a 30% tax credit, I helped them out by keeping the price high so they could get the maximum of $1500.00, and I laughed all the way to the bank :ROTFL:

And back to the topic, all these trucks hauling products for you to buy, with expensive DPF filters, along with there maintenance, yup your guessed, pull out you wallet again suckers :goink:

We have so much to thank all those elected lawyers for in DC :google:

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Proudly supporting CRD vendors, and their development of quality parts and accessories.
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Last edited by flman on Fri Oct 01, 2010 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:53 pm 
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Perhaps if our Government would hose us less with new environmental regulations that go above and beyond what is needed. Time money could be donated (not taxed) for water purification equipment for parts of the world where their tap water is not even up to the standards required for discharge into our sewer plants. Yes industries have to pre-treat before they discharge into the municipal waste water, I work with the equipment on a regular basis. Those who don't properly pre-treat get hefty fines from the municipality and/or state, EPA doesn't even get involved in most cases.

For all you home brew BioDiesel producers, watch what you dump down the drain. Glycerin, a byproduct of BioDiesel feeds the bad bacteria and kills off the good bacteria screwing up the process, big time, even kills off smaller plants. Talk to your local people, they will make recommendations that are very easy to live with, better than fines and/or jail time.

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:36 pm 
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I know I should let sleeping dogs lie, but look how radical this group of Enviro Nazis are. I don't expect it to happen, but these people are sick to even think of such a thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Mw5_EBk0g&feature=player_embedded

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 10:44 pm 
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flman wrote:
I know I should let sleeping dogs lie, but look how radical this group of Enviro Nazis are. I don't expect it to happen, but these people are sick to even think of such a thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Mw5_EBk0g&feature=player_embedded


X2

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:18 pm 
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warp2diesel wrote:
Perhaps if our Government would hose us less with new environmental regulations that go above and beyond what is needed.

I would be interested to understand what you think is "above and beyond" what is needed? When you go to cities that have pollution problems, like LA, and SLC, do you not think that more needs to be done? There 3 main problems here, one is the pollution from each individual car / vehicle, another is the increasing numbers of vehicles and the last is the increasing miles driven per each vehicle.

Overall auto emissions will still increase even if pollution standards to do not get more strict.


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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:49 pm 
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dieseldoesit wrote:
warp2diesel wrote:
Perhaps if our Government would hose us less with new environmental regulations that go above and beyond what is needed.

I would be interested to understand what you think is "above and beyond" what is needed? When you go to cities that have pollution problems, like LA, and SLC, do you not think that more needs to be done? There 3 main problems here, one is the pollution from each individual car / vehicle, another is the increasing numbers of vehicles and the last is the increasing miles driven per each vehicle.

Overall auto emissions will still increase even if pollution standards to do not get more strict.


I hope you have all your CRD emission controls intact, being your are an advocate for emission controls. How many times have you changed the EGR?

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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:05 pm 
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flman wrote:
I hope you have all your CRD emission controls intact, being your are an advocate for emission controls. How many times have you changed the EGR?

Apparently the question wasn't clear enough? It wasn't rhetorical..


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 Post subject: Re: DPF Regen problems with EMS vehicals
PostPosted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:15 pm 
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dieseldoesit wrote:
flman wrote:
I hope you have all your CRD emission controls intact, being your are an advocate for emission controls. How many times have you changed the EGR?

Apparently the question wasn't clear enough? It wasn't rhetorical..


It was to me, your an advocate, and advocates hate pollution (even the harmless stuff). So is the EGR, CAT, Muffler and other emission devices in compliance? Or are you a hypocrite? Just a simple question. :roll:

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