egr delete

4sefed · **Posted:** Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:09 pm

cumminspilot wrote:

350 miles 12.5 gal ... almost 28mpg avg rpm 2200 to 2300

as far as the egr cel either the people on this forum are correct or Kieth is correct

He did note that his tune utilizes the egr for turbo pressure release in a high load to no load situation ... in short it helps reduce turbo bark and helps your turbo live longer ...he also said that either way I would not have codes

I will update when the new ecm is installed

jim

Interesting... using the EGR as a BOV of sorts.

ebbnflow · **Posted:** Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:12 am

Does anyone sell a block off plate for our CRD's?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:25 pm

ebbnflow wrote:

Does anyone sell a block off plate for our CRD's?

Just get a piece of brass, copper, or Stainless Steel (best) 14Ga -18 Ga plate from a Hardware/Hobby Store, cut it to the shape of the gasket , punch in the two bolt holes, but do not put the big hole in the center in it. Or you can get the exhaust gasket material from NAPA and make a gasket with out the big hole, it would look original from the outside. :wink:

cumminspilot · **Posted:** Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:08 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

ebbnflow wrote:

Does anyone sell a block off plate for our CRD's?

Just get a piece of brass, copper, or Stainless Steel (best) 14Ga -18 Ga plate from a Hardware/Hobby Store, cut it to the shape of the gasket , punch in the two bolt holes, but do not put the big hole in the center in it. Or you can get the exhaust gasket material from NAPA and make a gasket with out the big hole, it would look original from the outside. :wink:

What gasket are you referring to?

The only gasket that I found was on the air valve to intake manifold and you certainly do not want to block that

all of the egr tubes on my motori where c clamp similar to the tri clamp fittings that we use in the winemaking industry.

the egr flow comes right off of the exhaust manifold ....the outlet is either screwed or pressed into the exhaust manifod... the downstream outlet is flat flare type c clamp fitting with no gasket

the typical egr blocker plate rhat you are refering to such as found on a duramax or powerstroke will not work in this application

as far as using gasket material for a blocker plate ...how well did that work out for you?

jim

flash7210 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:24 pm

Either block off the square hole or the round one.
I think the square hole would work best.

cumminspilot · **Posted:** Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:49 pm

you very sneaky man

you hide blocker plate very very well ...my hat is off

I looked up in the dark hole and said take it all out

you looked in the same dark hole and said lets fix it in place

I just could not bear the thought of trying to maintain those little bitty cooloant hoses that were already leaking

I did not even pull the cooler and valve apart I just pulled it out as one

Your solution is the best that I have seen for maintaining completely stock look

how did you clear the codes and did you remove the blade in the air valve?

jim

bakersoil · **Joined:** Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:43 am **Posts:** 68

There is someone over on the TDI forum that will flash the computer to turn off the EGR and no CEL. Called an offroad mod and costs like 500.00 bucks.

ebbnflow · **Posted:** Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:54 pm

ebbnflow wrote:

Just get a piece of brass, copper, or Stainless Steel (best) 14Ga -18 Ga plate from a Hardware/Hobby Store, cut it to the shape of the gasket , punch in the two bolt holes, but do not put the big hole in the center in it. Or you can get the exhaust gasket material from NAPA and make a gasket with out the big hole, it would look original from the outside. :wink:

Thanks for the great idea. I'll add that to my to do list. I did this on my tdi but I just bought a plate. I'm not much of a machinist, but I think the exhaust gasket material is up my alley.

I'm also curious if anyone has done a block off plate or delete with a GDE tune? Any CEL's?

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:45 pm

I have SEGR and combined that with an InMotion tune before GDE came along. GDE tune almost never opens the EGR. It only occurs when you have been applying heavy throttle, then suddenly completely lift off, then jump back on. It opens the EGR to keep the turbo from overspeeding. My SEGR is still installed, but now disabled. (I have run it enabled with the GDE tune without any problem.)

I really don't see why an SEGR would be needed with a GDE tune. At the very least, why not try the GDE first? It's so much easier. If you still have a CEL, it is due to the mods you are doing that probably will not offer any advantage over what has already been developed for the CRD. However, an SEGR might take care of the CEL, though, if it still persists.

DOC

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:55 pm

Not all of us are GDE fans, I would still put in the plate. Their argument is what I will politely call an Engineering assumption they chose to use that I disagree with. But if they feel their tune needs it, it is their choice. To back up my point, I have yet to hear of a single case of anyone with an InMotion or RocketChip tune in a CRD over revving their turbo under the conditions GDE makes reference to for their argument.
Unlike Gasoline engines which are designed and tuned to use the EGR as a pseudo Octane Booster. The EGR for Diesels is just a legislative requirement that does nothing good for the engine.
Personally I feel that EGR on a diesel is as stupid as drinking sewer water coming out of a hospital to boost your immune system. True working around sewer plants does boost your immune system (as mine has been) but the pathogens are so greatly diluted to a minimal inoculation level. Hospital waste is super concentrated with the worst stuff so you can get very sick. Hope my analogy is not too much for some to stomach.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:19 pm

Doc - Do you have the ability to monitor the EGR activation requests in the computer? I do, with the AutoEnginuity device and their Chrysler Advanced product. The EGR activation is one of the many data points that can be closely monitored and charted. I don't know what program GDE uses for their own data logging, but I have logged my own GDE Tune and the results DO NOT match what you are saying.

Heavy throttle / light throttle / moderate throttle. High speed, low speed, high acceleration, easy acceleration, steady cruise.

It doesn't matter. ALL have the same result with the GDE tune: You take your foot off the pedal completely (It didn't seem to matter whether you snapped off from full, or slowly released your foot) but as soon as that throttle signal reaches zero requested - The EGR is requested to open for .5 seconds. EVERY TIME.

I don't personally care what others choose to do on their own vehicles, or what reasoning GDE chose to justify this programming choice. This is simply an impartial statement about what the program is doing based on driver input.

I know Warp is not a fan of GDE, for reasons that are unknown to me. I am a huge fan of GDE, their programs and Keith's support has been amazing to me and my CRD's performance. On the matter of the EGR operation, Warp and I am in agreement however - I do not believe they are needed or justified on any diesel, and cause FAR more problems than they solve. But that is my opinion. From a legal standpoint, I DO know why GDE would have made the choice they have - Anything that can be directly claimed to "eliminate the EGR operation 100%" will be heavily watched and noticed by the authorities who pay attention to these sort of things... And the company can very likely be prevented from selling said product to the public.

Defeating the emissions controls of a vehicle is illegal according to the letter of the law. Doing it on your personal vehicle is unlikely to get any recognition from anyone, depending on the level of inspection (if any) that your local area chooses to do. Selling a commercial product that enables or encourages others to violate the law is VERY likely to be recognized, stickers of "for off road use only" won't save your company.

Cheater-chips can get away with the sticker because (if they even do eliminate or fool the EGR CEL nanny) they are designed to be removable, and the vehicle can still operate. So for an "off-road" use, you could claim you installed the device, and simply forgot to remove it when you returned to the highway.

A full ECM replacement is NOT easily removable - You need a spare ECM for the vehicle, which not that many people have. So the majority of people buying a whole-ECM tune WILL BE USING IT ON THE HIGHWAY, regardless of what the selling company may claim with a sticker. To prevent this from happening (if said ECM tune removes emission functions entirely) the EPA and other enforcers will block the sale of such a product.

Its simple: For GDE to be able to sell us the awesome tune options we have, they cannot legally claim that it will remove all EGR functionality. The way they have chosen to "use" the EGR is a little weird, and I don't personally support that method... But if it keep the product legal, then I'm OK with that. The SEGR is a valid complementary device to do what they cannot legally do. If a plate works as well, without throwing a code, then coolness for that option too.

Anyone notice that Keith hasn't ever responded about exactly why and how he decided to set up the EGR like he did? Its a total guess, but I think it is because of the scrutiny that an ECM tuner might just have to deal with from Those Who Make Lives Difficult.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:55 pm

I suspect that GDE did what they did to keep the Acid Head Hippie induced legislation off their back, by not totally shutting off the EGR. To cover their backside and bank account they can not endorse the plate or other devices. Other tuners will not touch the EGR part of the tune. Anyone who states that any legal tune shuts off the EGR is blowing smoke and not out their CRD tail pipe.
In my opinion most of the Acid Head Hippie induced legislation is as stupid as making it a law that requires a bride not to wear black panties under a white wedding dress.
To be honest from a performance stand point, I would put up with DEF (Urea) instead of EGR given the option.
If you make the assumption that CARB did not contaminate the following EPA chart with any of their bogus DATA. Agricultural Soil Maintenance produces 6.9 times more NOX than all mobile transportation combined that includes Diesel Engines. Even in Silicone Valley, it looks like the grass will produce more NOX than the cars and trucks do. When I was there the indoor air pollution from perfumes and cleaners was greater than the outdoor pollution coming from mobile transportation. With asthma, cockroach droppings cause more attacks than diesel engines, even the older ones.
Just making some jabs at Junk Science

Under perfect conditions NOX can form smog, take away one variable and it won't happen.

cumminspilot · **Posted:** Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:32 pm

I do not know if turbo over speed is a major problem on the motori. I have never heard it bark as a bumped up cummins will do if it is unloaded too quickly, however I have only run a stock tune on the motori and I have never towed with it.

What Keith is doing with the egr makes sense to me. It functions enough to keep it working so the egr valve does not gum up. It provides a kind of pop off valve to help prevent over speed (bark). Having seen the narrow, rough casting of our stock turbo outlet for myself I believe that he might have a valid concern. A lot of air has to go thru that rough little hole. I do not think that this will ever be a problem in my application as this is my wife's daily driver and I can not imagine towing with the little guy.

I can however see plenty of towing situations where good throttle management would be needed to prevent bark (over speed).

Most stock diesel pickups do not use egr in this fashion in fact I never heard a bark in my cummins until I added fuel timing and air.

I believe Kieth has a valid concern especially with his hot tune... this is a safety factor

In my application I am not very concerned, this jeep does not get driven hard. Keith did not see a potential problem with my egr being gone. Also to tell the truth I am not a big fan of variable geometry turbos and will have no problems replacing this garrett with a switzwer s200 or so if the garrett pops. After all as I told Keith all turbos fail eventually and usually the parts go downstream.

Geordi
You have obviously spent much time and effort with your motori and you know your stuff, however I am from the diesel hot rod, drag racing, sled pulling world. I can tell you that most tuners and makers of after market parts just do not care about epa ect they make dedicated racing parts, how you apply them is your business. At the level we play at nobody cares about stock limitations placed on their engines because none of us have been stock for a long time. In short you pay to play.

On the other hand It is a new phenomenon for me to have to deal with a diesel that is designed to destroy itself thru the use of egr, dpf,doc ect.....

All tuners have to make compromises with their tune. You have no idea how close to the ragged edge some tuners will go for hp gains. The shop I use recently replaced a dmax because the owner popped a piston with a hot new tune. The tune was actually not that hot but the dmax is rather sensitive.

In short if a product is not for you it does not always make it a bad product (ok anything made by AFE is junk) it is only a bad product if it does not do what is advertised or the workmanship is shoddy or both (AFE for example). Keith goes as far as explaining exactly what his product does if you like it cool if not also cool.

PS. I have not even ordered his product yet so in my case I am only hoping it will work I only really need it to clear cel so if it does that it will work for me.

my 2 cents
jim

ebbnflow · **Posted:** Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:45 pm

cumminspilot wrote:

PS. I have not even ordered his product yet so in my case I am only hoping it will work I only really need it to clear cel so if it does that it will work for me.

If you do get a GDE tune, please let us know if your CEL's go away. I am very curious.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:43 pm

Jim:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you refer to Turbo Bark, or if my turbo is even doing it. If it is a symptom of turbo overspeed, why would that happen when the power is released, rather than applied? I'm genuinely curious, I have no idea on that one. I know the basic theory on turbo function, my knowledge of the VM system specifically (from troubleshooting) says that when the power pedal is released, the fuel is cut almost instantly and the turbo vanes close again.

That takes a little bit, more than a couple rotations of the engine, because it might take half a second for the vanes to return to closed. At the same time, IF the boost in the system was dangerous to the turbo, I can see how logically one might think the air would push back against the turbo's compressor snail spindle. Is this what you are talking about?

If so, why wouldn't the pressure ALSO be released from the engine side, by the continuous inhalation of opening cylinders? That is a very effective way to move air through the intake system normally...

I lost a turbo on my CRD already. That caused me to lose the engine, but partly because I did not recognize what had taken place and the engine pumped itself low on oil. I also don't believe that the turbo failure was caused by overspeeding, but that is still up for debate.

cumminspilot · **Posted:** Sun Oct 17, 2010 6:43 pm

geordi wrote:

Jim:

I'm not entirely sure what you mean when you refer to Turbo Bark, or if my turbo is even doing it. If it is a symptom of turbo overspeed, why would that happen when the power is released, rather than applied? I'm genuinely curious, I have no idea on that one. I know the basic theory on turbo function, my knowledge of the VM system specifically (from troubleshooting) says that when the power pedal is released, the fuel is cut almost instantly and the turbo vanes close again.

That takes a little bit, more than a couple rotations of the engine, because it might take half a second for the vanes to return to closed. At the same time, IF the boost in the system was dangerous to the turbo, I can see how logically one might think the air would push back against the turbo's compressor snail spindle. Is this what you are talking about?

If so, why wouldn't the pressure ALSO be released from the engine side, by the continuous inhalation of opening cylinders? That is a very effective way to move air through the intake system normally...

I lost a turbo on my CRD already. That caused me to lose the engine, but partly because I did not recognize what had taken place and the engine pumped itself low on oil. I also don't believe that the turbo failure was caused by overspeeding, but that is still up for debate.

geordi

No stock diesel should have this problem I don't know about the motori

I happens when you add a lot of fuel; bigger injectors, pump work, etc... and increase boost by blocking waste gate, boost fooler or otherwise

at this point you are on the ragged edge of the map range of your stock turbo... now when you unload the turbo in a hurry you cannot get the air into the engine fast enough so the pressure backs up to the turbo and goes out the fresh air intake the turbo makes a series of sharp whooping sounds accompanied by a jolt in the truck ...basically the air pressure has nowhere else to go

if it is happening you will know about it

sled pullers and drag racers run a pop off valve in their turbo housing to help with this or they would destroy even more turbos than they do now

remember we are talking about boost far north of 35lbs

this may not be an exactly correct definition but that is how I understand it and that is what it feels like...it is very hard on the turbo ...you do not get to do it very ofter without bad things happening to mister turbo

My knowledge on turbos is limited to fixed vane turbo I just don't know the variable vain type very well ...except I find them complicated, expensive and another part to break

I do not know what the boost in the motori is limited to but I would guess it is not over 25lbs

If the gde hot tune raised the boost above that he probably put it in there for safety. After talking to Keith he struck me as a very careful tuner who is trying to work within the parameters of the stock system.

you might also look on u tube for some videos of cummins sled pullers and cummins turbo bark

I hope some of this made some sense but at least you got what you paid for

jim

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:56 pm

Thanks for that description. Being able to mentally visualize the situation, I'm guessing that the turbo shaft is either violently reversing direction (REALLY not good for it) or the turbulence is causing the noise in the system and stressing the compressor snail.

Like you said, this won't happen often before something grenades.

Keith is as you suspect, a VERY careful tuner for these trucks. Moreso than any I have ever worked with, he has tested and re-tested everything he has offered out there. I have no doubt that if I have a problem with my turbo again, it won't be because of his tune. My boost gauge tells me that even slamming the go-pedal while going uphill on a near-10% bridge grade, the boost doesn't cross 26psi. I haven't ever heard anything other than the normal whistle-power-down from my turbo either.

As far as the EGR, maybe it is a function of Keith being overly cautious and protective of the CRD members that he has provided for... Maybe it does serve some minor function... Maybe it is just a way of providing an on-road tune because he doesn't (AFAIK) offer any services strictly for the off-road-mod crowd. I don't know. On my CRD, the EGR was not providing anything other than added weight on the block.

ebbnflow · **Posted:** Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:30 pm

geordi wrote:

On my CRD, the EGR was not providing anything other than added weight on the block.

Does this mean your EGR is removed? Do you have a GDE tune? Are your CEL's gone?

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:38 am

Yup... Insofar as both tubes feeding it are gone and plugged.
Yup... Got the Eco-tune and the transmission tune
Yup, that could be due to the SEGR or the GDE tune

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:36 pm

SEGR and the GDE tune shut off the CEL.

egr delete

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