engine sludge or worn oil pump?

turbobike · **Posted:** Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:27 pm

anyone had any sludge or oil pump issues ? I had what seemed to be a bad oil pressure sensor late last winter. I installed a new sensor and it has been fine until oil change last week. Last winter oil change was from Mobil 1 to Rotella T6. Last week's oil change was from Rotella T6 back to Mobil 1. Now I am getting oil light again for a few hundred yards when I start out with an overnite, cold engine. Could it be that Mobil 1 is cleaning out the sludge and blocking up the sender unit ? (There are no oil leaks and crankcase is full). Is there that much difference between 0w-40 and 5w-40 cold viscosity ? Theoretically, the 5w-40 should flow better below freezing. So, am I looking at a sludge blockage, or another bad sending unit, or, worse, a worn oil pump ? Truck has 95,000 miles on it. I will be changing back to Rotella at next change and see what happens. (engine is quieter with Rotella)

W9JAB · **Joined:** Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:50 am **Posts:** 54

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56778
:dead:

turbobike · **Posted:** Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:54 pm

scary pix, but it doesn't answer my question

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:25 am

The oil pressures switch is a standard Chrysler issue, not a Quality Bosch or VM component. Your oil pressure switch may be junk and causing the light to come on. Unscrew the switch that has 1/8 inch National Pipe Threads and screw in a gauge and check the oil pressure. You will need to fast finger the switch out and install the gauge so you don't have oil running out of the oil gallery, it will not drain the pan. My test gauge has a 1/8" NPT grease gun hose attached to it to allow it to get into tight spots. A cheap gauge from Home Depot or the Hardware Store will work for the test.
If the engine is not clicking from too little oil pressure to the lifters or knocking, chances are good you have a bad switch, but no guarantee until you test.
Also check the wiring to the switch, it may have gotten caught and skinned so the wire to the switch shorts out to ground.

flman · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:26 am

Are diesel engines even known to sludge up like gassers? I had the valve cover off my Cummins at 125K and there was not one deposit under or on the cover. I thought sludge had a lot to do with the PCV system, and on a V one side of the bank always had more sludge? Of course our CRDs don't have a PCV, and burn a different fuel?

Any ways, like Warp says get a gauge on there, check the wire. Or you could just get another sender since you had the same problem before?

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:14 pm

flman wrote:

Of course our CRDs don't have a PCV, and burn a different fuel?

Where did you acquire this little piece of information from?.

flman · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:01 pm

nursecosmo wrote:

flman wrote:

Of course our CRDs don't have a PCV, and burn a different fuel?

Where did you acquire this little piece of information from?.

They have a CCV, not a PCV. CCV is crank case pressure, PCV is vapors drawn by engine vacuum, with lots of flow. Unless they don't do this any more, I have not owned a gasser in so many years I am kind of clueless. :ALONE:

Any ways, I was thinking my TDIs had no sludge under the valve covers either.

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:27 pm

flman wrote:

nursecosmo wrote:

flman wrote:

Of course our CRDs don't have a PCV, and burn a different fuel?

Where did you acquire this little piece of information from?.

They have a CCV, not a PCV. CCV is crank case pressure, PCV is vapors drawn by engine vacuum, with lots of flow. Unless they don't do this any more, I have not owned a gasser in so many years I am kind of clueless. :ALONE:

Any ways, I was thinking my TDIs had no sludge under the valve covers either.

What DCX calls a "CCV" and a PCV are one and the same. Any crankcase venting system which has a one way flow is considered a "Positive Crankcase Ventilation" system. See the note on Diesel Engines in this link.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:32 pm

turbobike wrote:

anyone had any sludge or oil pump issues ? I had what seemed to be a bad oil pressure sensor late last winter. I installed a new sensor and it has been fine until oil change last week. Last winter oil change was from Mobil 1 to Rotella T6. Last week's oil change was from Rotella T6 back to Mobil 1. Now I am getting oil light again for a few hundred yards when I start out with an overnite, cold engine. Could it be that Mobil 1 is cleaning out the sludge and blocking up the sender unit ? (There are no oil leaks and crankcase is full). Is there that much difference between 0w-40 and 5w-40 cold viscosity ? Theoretically, the 5w-40 should flow better below freezing. So, am I looking at a sludge blockage, or another bad sending unit, or, worse, a worn oil pump ? Truck has 95,000 miles on it. I will be changing back to Rotella at next change and see what happens. (engine is quieter with Rotella)

turbobike: Why do you say that 5W-40 should flow better in cold weather? I notice a substantial difference with the ease of starting between the M1 0W-40 and the T6 5W-40. The easiest to start at <-30 seems to be M1 0W-30.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:50 pm

The reason Detroit Gassers had the PCV valve was to prevent having to suck the crankcase fumes through the carburetor and make it gum up when in warranty. By plumbing a PCV valve into the intake this problem was solved. My old BMWs had the crankcase vented into the carburetor(s) as did a lot of other European cars and they had no PCV valve but they did have PCV.
Six of one half dozen of the other. Either way, CARB did not see any fumes, so they were satisfied until they cam up with more regulations.
In all honesty, Gasser Fuel Injection made the biggest stride to reduce emissions. All of the intermittent Bean Counter Steps like Feed Back Carburetors were just a stalling tactic to cut costs and not deliver an engine that performs, has good fuel economy, and much lower emissions.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:53 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

The oil pressures switch is a standard Chrysler issue, not a Quality Bosch or VM component. Your oil pressure switch may be junk and causing the light to come on. Unscrew the switch that has 1/8 inch National Pipe Threads and screw in a gauge and check the oil pressure. You will need to fast finger the switch out and install the gauge so you don't have oil running out of the oil gallery, it will not drain the pan. My test gauge has a 1/8" NPT grease gun hose attached to it to allow it to get into tight spots. A cheap gauge from Home Depot or the Hardware Store will work for the test.
If the engine is not clicking from too little oil pressure to the lifters or knocking, chances are good you have a bad switch, but no guarantee until you test.
Also check the wiring to the switch, it may have gotten caught and skinned so the wire to the switch shorts out to ground.

The 1st person beside myself that states to actually check the oil pressure by a known good mechanical gauge before condemming the electronic sender.

How about that.

turbobike · **Posted:** Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:16 pm

Re: cold weather and which oil flows better

Thanx for catching that.....I meant to say 0w-40 should flow better tha 5w-40

flman · **Posted:** Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:39 am

nursecosmo wrote:

What DCX calls a "CCV" and a PCV are one and the same. Any crankcase venting system which has a one way flow is considered a "Positive Crankcase Ventilation" system. See the note on Diesel Engines in this link.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve

But diesels don't have this

"Positive Crankcase Ventilation Valve", because diesels don't create vacuum. OTOH Gassers do create vacuum, they are constantly drawing air through you engine from a breather filter, to the vacuum supplied to the PCV valve. I wonder if the air passing over the oil oxidises it, and cause the vapors to turn to sludge. I have seen plenty of sludgy gassers the most sludge is under the valve cover with the PCV valve, but I have never seen a sludgy diesel? Has any one seen a sludged up diesel before?

nursecosmo · **Posted:** Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:27 am

flman wrote:

nursecosmo wrote:

What DCX calls a "CCV" and a PCV are one and the same. Any crankcase venting system which has a one way flow is considered a "Positive Crankcase Ventilation" system. See the note on Diesel Engines in this link.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCV_valve

But diesels don't have this

"Positive Crankcase Ventilation Valve", because diesels don't create vacuum. OTOH Gassers do create vacuum, they are constantly drawing air through you engine from a breather filter, to the vacuum supplied to the PCV valve. I wonder if the air passing over the oil oxidises it, and cause the vapors to turn to sludge. I have seen plenty of sludgy gassers the most sludge is under the valve cover with the PCV valve, but I have never seen a sludgy diesel? Has any one seen a sludged up diesel before?

flman: What sort of environment do you think exists between the restrictive air filter and the turbocharger? Here is a hint: it's less than atmospheric pressure and more then outer space. Remember that this is where the CCV/PCV vents to on our CRDs. The only venting difference between a turbodiesel and a gasser is that a gasser has the highest vacuum while at idle with the least amount of blowby, A TD has the highest vacuum when at WOT and the turbocharger is working hard. This also happens to be during the period of highest blowby which is why we have a built in labyrinth oil separator (which doesn't work) on our Jeep's PCV.

However, this is probably immaterial to the question at hand. The reason that we see much less sludge in diesels is the superior oil used as well as somewhat lower crankcase operating temperatures (except in the turbo, where coking can occur). Diesel spec oil has vastly higher amounts of detergents as well as a vastly higher TBN which all contribute to extended change intervals and less polymerization on crankcase surfaces.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:01 pm

turbobike wrote:

Re: cold weather and which oil flows better

Thanx for catching that.....I meant to say 0w-40 should flow better tha 5w-40

If it is very cold like -30f the 0W-40 will flow a little better than 5W-40 for initial starting.
I have not had problems with 5W-40 at -20f for winter starting.
The argument for 0W-40 is that if it is -30f and you don't get started, your dead in the water.
The argument against 0W-40 is that if it is 105f the 0W-40 oil may not have the viscosity of 10W-40 when the oil is getting toward the end of its usable change interval and the viscosity index improver breaks down.
Now here is the little pesky Law of Physics that changes things if you put in a heavy oil like 20W-50 to quiet down a old and tired engine. If you put in an oil too thick, it will heat up and thin out and you will loose the advantage of the thicker oil.
So if you live in the far US North, Siberia, most of Canada, or a high altitude where it gets to -30f or -40f, running 0W-40 in the winter is a no brainer.
If you live in Texas 0W-40 is not as good an idea and not needed, 10W-40 will do.

flman · **Posted:** Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:33 pm

nursecosmo wrote:

flman: What sort of environment do you think exists between the restrictive air filter and the turbocharger? Here is a hint: it's less than atmospheric pressure and more then outer space. Remember that this is where the CCV/PCV vents to on our CRDs. The only venting difference between a turbodiesel and a gasser is that a gasser has the highest vacuum while at idle with the least amount of blowby, A TD has the highest vacuum when at WOT and the turbocharger is working hard. This also happens to be during the period of highest blowby which is why we have a built in labyrinth oil separator (which doesn't work) on our Jeep's PCV.

That is the only port on the diesel CC right? There is no place for the diesel engine to draw in air? So it is not exactly like the PVC system with a vent on the engine for air to be drawn into the CC? On the diesel it is only drawing what comes out of the piston blow by, there fore no oxygen is being drawn into the CC. And guess what is going into the CC along with that air? Moisture! Oil and water don't mix, I can bet the combination of air and water contribute to the sludging in gassers.

nursecosmo wrote:

However, this is probably immaterial to the question at hand. The reason that we see much less sludge in diesels is the superior oil used as well as somewhat lower crankcase operating temperatures (except in the turbo, where coking can occur). Diesel spec oil has vastly higher amounts of detergents as well as a vastly higher TBN which all contribute to extended change intervals and less polymerization on crankcase surfaces.

Good answer, that is what I was looking for, "why diesels are not sludgers like gassers?" I am also wondering if the OP has sludge in his engine, but I highly doubt it? :roll:

Here is a good write up on sludge, they say very little about diesel sludge, the biggest emphasis is on gassers.
http://www.synlube.com/sludge.htm

SPN-87 · **Joined:** Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:09 pm **Posts:** 53

nursecosmo wrote:

turbobike: Why do you say that 5W-40 should flow better in cold weather? I notice a substantial difference with the ease of starting between the M1 0W-40 and the T6 5W-40. The easiest to start at <-30 seems to be M1 0W-30.

0W40 or 5W40 for winter (-25/-35 C here)
10W40 for summer (+35/+45 C here)
Don`t use oil with W30 mark.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:19 pm

It took a lot to get any sludge out of a CRD, but I found some very thick dirty heavy sludge in my centrifuge when I cleaned it out.
Check out my other post:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=51648

Conclusion, CRDs are not sludgers.

cerich · **Posted:** Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:48 pm

I had a bad oil filter once that presented as you describe, changed filter and never a problem since. The filter was from Chrysler

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:39 pm

cerich wrote:

I had a bad oil filter once that presented as you describe, changed filter and never a problem since. The filter was from Chrysler

I use the top of the line WIX filter, my centrifuge acts like a bypass filter and removes particles as fine as 2 micron from the oil that is not being used by the engine for lubrication. The centrifuge will process up to 55 gallons per hour when I am driving at highway speeds.

CARB and EPA want DPF filters on our exhaust that will remove 2.5 micron particles, dumb & dumber.

engine sludge or worn oil pump?

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