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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 3:33 pm 
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geordi wrote:
If RacerTracer is correct about either one of those points being the substance of your lawsuit (i.e. Chrysler-Jeep is not maintaining a 10 year supply of parts or servicing an active fleet of their product...)

I think you will simply be shoving money down a lawyer's wallet for nothing in return. The case will never see the inside of a courtroom, as a judge in NY gave them a golden ticket already. From what I remember, this is the judge's order: Daimler Chrysler remains responsible for any legal claims based on its products. Chrysler-Fiat is a separate corporation purchasing only the assets of Daimler Chrysler, and is not responsible for any current or future claims against the products of Daimler-Chrysler.

Where I *do* think you have cause, (sadly not much) is in the actions of the dealer network in providing bad advice (hopefully in writing, but unlikely) and the other dealer in attempting to start your vehicle, then claiming "prior damage." Unfortunately, this seems to be a situation like mine with them - I had a warranty on paper, they decided I suddenly didn't. No amount of pushing from an individual is going to get them to change their opinion, especially when backed up by that dang judge's bankruptcy order. We are on our own, completely.

Also, suing them and demanding that they negotiate to bring ANOTHER fleet of vehicles to the USA, or even a single unit? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! That seriously is the funniest thing I have read all week. You would be asking Chrysler to get a non-approved vehicle through the EPA just for you? Probably one that they had no intention of bringing to the USA in the first place, certainly not for at least the perennial "2-3 years from now" marketing speak of "we won't do it, but we don't want to say NO directly" that they would tell you.

The EPA is the bigger obstacle in getting any new vehicles here, but that is a whole different thread of pain. Your situation is that IF you were able to convince a judge to overlook that Golden Ticket, they would ONLY be replacing your vehicle with either the pro-rated value of its current worth (So the insurance value) in cash... OR providing a replacement vehicle from their current fleet - So a GAS KJ version, most likely, with only the pro-rated value of your KJ knocked off the price. The possibility of them just giving you a whole car? Slim to none.

The problem is that America is now the country of The Corporation, and we are merely its servants. If you bring this to a court, you are the one with the burden of proof, and the corporation will be given every concession possible. Life is just so hard for these tiny corporations trying to make their way in this rough world, they really must be protected from the big bad personal lawyer and the tort system. It almost brings a tear to my eye when I see how many corporations have proudly clawed their way past these hurtful lawsuits to reach the sunlight of billion dollar profits.


Think there would be a better shot at pursuing a cause for lack of availability and exorbitant prices for replacement parts as discussed in this thread; viewtopic.php?f=5&t=57292&start=0


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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:25 pm 
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Sadly, no. Exorbitant prices and lack of availability are called Capitalism.

There is no direct requirement (law or otherwise) that says that a manufacturer has to keep making parts or even stocking them for any length of time after production is ceased. Yea, the manufacturers DO make lots of parts after they decide to end a model, witness the several-train-loads of parts for the DeLorean DMC-1 that are in a warehouse in Texas even now. Or the tooling / spares collection that was purchased from GM for the GMC Motorhome of 1976 vintage - There is a group out there TODAY that knows where all of the 20k or so GMC motorhomes are at, and is the full-on brain trust of keeping those vehicles on the road and working.

We here at LOST and GDE, SunCoast, InMotion, and any others are rapidly becoming the same brain trust for our own fleet of orphan vehicles. Unfortunately, the same government protections that prevent someone from charging $10 for a gallon of gasoline after a hurricane (Low supply, high demand, right?) is the one that will deny us any legal remedy for the parts problem.

We don't need these parts to survive a disaster. (Ok, it is a necessity to US, but you get the idea) the manufacturer of ANYTHING is not going to produce what they cannot sell. Legally, there isn't any way for us to force this issue to change. Those that DO choose to produce or procure these parts from elsewhere in the world can charge whatever the market will bear. I don't like it any more than you do, but that is the way the cookie crumbles.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 7:53 pm 
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There is pure capitalism, which by its nature is self destructive, and there is Capitalism with checks and balances such as laws against price gouging during national disasters. The ideal is somewhere in between and open to interpretation, which with enough push can be adjusted to create reasonable expectations. If you feel that paying over $350 for a piston or $7000.00+ for a replacement engine (if you can even locate one) for a fairly standard line of automobile that doesn't have a prancing horse emblem, then so be it.


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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:05 pm 
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AJN wrote:
There is pure capitalism, which by its nature is self destructive, and there is Capitalism with checks and balances such as laws against price gouging during national disasters. The ideal is somewhere in between and open to interpretation, which with enough push can be adjusted to create reasonable expectations. If you feel that paying over $350 for a piston or $7000.00+ for a replacement engine (if you can even locate one) for a fairly standard line of automobile that doesn't have a prancing horse emblem, then so be it.


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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 9:39 pm 
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AJN wrote:
There is pure capitalism, which by its nature is self destructive, and there is Capitalism with checks and balances such as laws against price gouging during national disasters. The ideal is somewhere in between and open to interpretation, which with enough push can be adjusted to create reasonable expectations. If you feel that paying over $350 for a piston or $7000.00+ for a replacement engine (if you can even locate one) for a fairly standard line of automobile that doesn't have a prancing horse emblem, then so be it.


Hey, I didn't say I agreed with those prices either. I think those prices for pistons or entire engines (I ended up spending 8k on my own total replacement) is insane to say the least. But at the same time, we don't have the economy of scale much better than that "Prancing Horse" that you mention. 20k vehicles out of 300 million people? Ferrari probably has more penetration than that, possibly in California alone! Yea, Ferrari's numbers would include all their various models where our 20k is only one design... But the logic is still the same. 20k vehicles out of 300 million people, with an average total purchasing of 15-18 million vehicles PER YEAR. How many of those 20k vehicles will need new engines? Of the membership here, I can count 5 people so far. Like it or not, unless there is a BIG 900 lb gorilla to push Jeep / Chrysler / VM to start making parts for us based on the possibilities of the future... They aren't gonna do it. Companies don't make money by tying up their existing cash in product that will sit and gather dust for who-knows-how-long.

What we need to do is find that bigger 900 lb gorilla to lean on them and make them do a financially questionable thing like stocking old parts for us. Something like a public report about how we have been directly orphaned by our vehicle manufacturer, when said manufacturer previously has stated that they would not be abandoning their current customers. Will a PR campaign like that work and get results? I honestly don't know. But I DO know that legally there is no stick for us to beat on them with.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:00 am 
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geordi wrote:
Hey, I didn't say I agreed with those prices either. I think those prices for pistons or entire engines (I ended up spending 8k on my own total replacement) is insane to say the least. But at the same time, we don't have the economy of scale much better than that "Prancing Horse" that you mention. 20k vehicles out of 300 million people? Ferrari probably has more penetration than that, possibly in California alone! Yea, Ferrari's numbers would include all their various models where our 20k is only one design... But the logic is still the same. 20k vehicles out of 300 million people, with an average total purchasing of 15-18 million vehicles PER YEAR. How many of those 20k vehicles will need new engines? Of the membership here, I can count 5 people so far. Like it or not, unless there is a BIG 900 lb gorilla to push Jeep / Chrysler / VM to start making parts for us based on the possibilities of the future... They aren't gonna do it. Companies don't make money by tying up their existing cash in product that will sit and gather dust for who-knows-how-long.

.

I have to agree with you and glad one of you actually sees the "big picture".

With that being said I really do feel bad for you guy's about the part issues,and no I'm not joking or making fun of you either.

Also didn't they change the 2.8 CRD recently? Just enough that older version like yours can't use the newer parts?


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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:03 am 
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That's more of a "small picture" view which keeps referring to US sales volume of CRD.

The same R428 engine was also manufactured for use in Europe, Asia, South America, Africa, and Australia. In simple terms, that's a lot of 2.8 diesels out there which need replacement parts. So my question is how much effort would it take the US arm of VM Motori to facilitate the availability of affordable replacement parts for the folks in the States who want to keep their CRD on the road?

All we want (and should expect) is to be allowed the same opportunity for access to affordable replacement parts like the rest of the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:35 pm 
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AJN wrote:
That's more of a "small picture" view which keeps referring to US sales volume of CRD.

The same R428 engine was also manufactured for use in Europe, Asia, South America, Africa, and Australia. In simple terms, that's a lot of 2.8 diesels out there which need replacement parts. So my question is how much effort would it take the US arm of VM Motori to facilitate the availability of affordable replacement parts for the folks in the States who want to keep their CRD on the road?

All we want (and should expect) is to be allowed the same opportunity for access to affordable replacement parts like the rest of the world.


Thank you, well said. If I have to I will have a engine sent over from Europe. I have several contacts working on finding me a new eingine from Europe right now. One just installed a 997S motor in his Cayman S because it was a direct bolt-on minus some cable arrangement and it now sports 400ps NA!!!! BTW it was 8000 euros for a new motor from Porsche. His 640ps C6 Z06 was getting too comfortable for him.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:10 pm 
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8k Euro? Is that what he paid, or did he (hopefully!) pay a lot less?

How did he get it to the States / and out of the port?

This is something that I am looking into, as there was a diesel engine option for the ZJ in the UK. I have the service manual for the ZJ and I'm looking into the possibility that this could be almost a drop-in replacement for the gas engine, where I keep my transmission. That would be great... If highly unlikely. The problems with procuring an engine becomes the real trick, since AFAIK they were never available here, even in Canada.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:54 pm 
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No he is in Germany. As a side job he builds Brembo big brake kits for cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:16 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:51 pm 
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jinstall wrote:
No he is in Germany. As a side job he builds Brembo big brake kits for cars.

So what does that have to do with you? As you are no longer in Germany.


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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:05 pm 
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A known contact in Europe who probably has a better shot at finding a replacement motor than we do in these United States.

Yes, there is a world outside our borders. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:07 pm 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
jinstall wrote:
No he is in Germany. As a side job he builds Brembo big brake kits for cars.

So what does that have to do with you? As you are no longer in Germany.


He can ship me a motor if I need it.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:23 pm 
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jinstall wrote:
tjkj2002 wrote:
jinstall wrote:
No he is in Germany. As a side job he builds Brembo big brake kits for cars.

So what does that have to do with you? As you are no longer in Germany.


He can ship me a motor if I need it.

Shipping will be worth more then the engine :-)r :-)r


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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:32 am 
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US engines have low-lubricity coating on fuel system parts, European engines don't.

I'd recommend to sticking with a US engine...


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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:34 am 
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tjkj2002 wrote:
Shipping will be worth more then the engine :-)r :-)r


You know nothing about shipping part or vehcles in and out of Europe then. I did it for 13 years. I can have an engine here in 24 hours once it reaches the shipper.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:35 am 
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MrMopar64 wrote:
US engines have low-lubricity coating on fuel system parts, European engines don't.

I'd recommend to sticking with a US engine...


My Jeep was in Europe most of it's life running like clock work.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:52 am 
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Jinstall,

You would have a winner of a situation if you can procure any replacement part from your friends in Europe.

It would be interesting to know the cost difference of the European replacement parts vs the US replacement parts...... for let's say a water pump and also the best cost effective way to ship the part.

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 Post subject: Re: Waiting for the bad news....
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:26 am 
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Running a VM engine produced for the US in Europe is not a problem, it is the other way around that could lead to potential long term fuel system wear issues. The hardened coatings on the injectors, rail pressure control valve, and fuel pump are designed the handle the lower lubricity fuel here in the states. If you run an additive the Euro based engine should be fine for a long time.

As for shipping, it was about $500 to ship an engine across the atlantic the last time we checked. The real issue is the 1 Euro = 1.323 US dollar. It is like having a 30% tariff to buy parts in Euros these days and most likely not going to improve for a long while!

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