Blown Turbo and then some?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Tue Dec 07, 2010 1:11 pm

Diesel engines do not run under vacuum unlike gassers, therefore they do not have turbo seals, just little oil slingers or a oil ring that looks like a piston ring on a shaft. Unless the bearings on the turbo have failed and the turbine has rubbed on the housing, it looks like they are blowing smoke into a body cavity. If the extended warranty coveres the turbo, let Chrysler's Stupid Micromanagement Bean Counter Engineered jump through the hoops policy pay for it. Based upon what you have posted, I suspect the Service Manager is not some one who hunts because he/she would be wiping out the entrances of the Prairie Dog burrows with TP instead of taking aim at the animal.
Oil in the intake is from the Bean Counter Engineered oil separator puck on top of the valve cover, the Provent will fix that for good, EHM will just put the oil that gets past the puck onto the ground. My oil separator drains the oil back into the pan any small amount of water will evaporate out of the oil and get sucked into the intake providing distilled water mist injection, nothing to worry about. The Provent has a drain you can drain periodically or connect back to the sump.

When I had my shop, I got lots of cases where the other shops or dealers hung on parts and all it was turned out to be something simple, stupid, and cheap to fix if it had been properly diagnosed. To put it politely, I got paid my shop rate to write depositions for Lawyers and all cases were settled out of court.
With all of the Stupid Company Procedures, dealers get paid to follow the flow charts with their brains turned off and not for diagnostic time. When they run out of possibilities, they call in the Tech rep and let him/her go for it. Few of the Tech Reps know diddly and just follow the script.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:09 pm

Quote:

With all of the Stupid Company Procedures, dealers get paid to follow the flow charts with their brains turned off and not for diagnostic time. When they run out of possibilities, they call in the Tech rep and let him/her go for it. Few of the Tech Reps know diddly and just follow the script.

This may be the case for car dealers but it is not for Truck dealers. I have done warranty work for Navistar,Cummins, and CAT. You do have to follow their troubleshooting tree because they pay the bill. They also have spent big $$ on this and usually know what the problem is. Tech support is very good other than having to wait on hold for them to get to you. They are also the only ones who can authorize big $$ replacement parts. Your whole statement is ignorant on how warranty works and how it is paid. Who do you do warranty work for?

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:03 pm

MissysCRD wrote:

Sir Sam, how long ago was it that you were in the area? I've been here since '99. Maybe we crossed paths? I live north of La Cueva. I love driving home up the canyon, Jeep loves those curves too and I find I'm flying up at 70 mph without even realizing it. So far, no ticket as you know how the cops are up there. Since I don't work at the labs I don't go to LA much, more to Rio Rancho/Albq. westside.

Yup I used to live right in LA Cueva. I lived there in the early 90's so I've sure the place has changed quite a bit.

If your Jeep is running good now and no more CEL present themselves then I would say its time to move on. It doesn't sound like your out much money and you'll get to keep the parts.

You cannot run a provent and an EHM at the same time, the provent captures oil mist, the ehm just vents it.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:07 pm

as to coffee and donuts - Spanish researchers have now decided that the coffee donut combination makes you smarter......... which I really need to follow this thread - or threads - as I count it there's the

1) Hello Missy welcome to LOST and Albuquerque/Los Alamos is neat
2) troubleshooting Missy's dealership problems / fixes
2a) dealership troubleshooting is terrible and/or controlled by whoever's paying the bills.

okay - I think this comment goes in thread 2) - the EHM stinks - you can smell the oil - I tried it for a while and switched back to the Provent - although it might work better if you routed the hose further back - terminating it in the engine compartment allows vapors into the cabin vents.
:2cents:

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:04 pm

ATXKJ, sorry. That thread hoping thing bugs me too and now I see how easy a trap it is to fall into! Just glad to be back on track.

The Jeep should be able to come home tomorrow. We went down to the shop this evening to see what was happening and picked up the old parts (including the hoses). I mainly wanted to pull the dipstick to verify it was still full and didn't leak oil out the intake on the turbo as they believe, and it was still full. Looking at the parts I'm still scratching my head. Still not sure anything failed. Service Manager pointed out the filth but not having anything to compare to, I'm just not sure if that's excessive oil and soot we're seeing or normal for not having a Provent or EHM.
Tech Reps today had the shop clean the intakes from the EGR on the engine with some same procedure they use on 6.7l Cummins. I think that is what he said. And after 67 miles of testing afterwards CEL is not coming on (SM verified it had been throwing P0401 code) so they believe that's all that was needed to finish this whole "repair". Said this would've probably worked itself out over time but that clean just helped it along. SM just needs to verify with Tech Reps tomorrow that they too feel it's done and then I'll pick it up Thurs.

Sir Sam, even with extended warranty covering the turbo I'm looking at $4100 out of pocket to bring the jeep home now and that just hurts my pride and my pocket book! And I realized later after thinking about what runs where that you wouldn't do both EHM and Provent but thanks for clarifying. I plan to get that Provent on there as soon as it comes in. Although there's going to be about 250 miles of running it with these news parts, without the Provent by then but that won't be too much grime on the new parts, right? A possible 1/8 ounce of oil?
An expensive lesson learned for me...
M

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:25 pm

Missy......has anyone actually shown you the old turbo? Is there any play in the impeller shaft at all? If it does not wobble it is probably still good. If so I would show the service manager. Maybe then he will believe. Maybe.

reka12 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:38 am

I don't get it. What did you pay for and what was covered under warranty? Have the turbo checked out by a turbo shop; if it is still good, you should have a good case to get some of that money back. What dealer was this again?

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:47 am

WolverineFW,
the SM showed us the parts last night and even put his finger on the shaft and it didn't move around and then proceeded to show us the "etching" on the fins that he says is from the seal going and sucking in air which acted as 'sand' pitting the fins. Wow, that's a new one. We just took the parts and left and will get the Jeep out as soon as possible. The turbo was paid for by warranty so guess I have an extra. Its the replacing of other parts (and labor to do so) resulting from what they say is a turbo failure that I am having a hard time swallowing. Yeah I suupose if I prove the turbo is good they'd have to change theirs minds and make this right but not sure how to do that. I thought pulling the dipstick out and showing how the oil level was still full would click that - if the seal went and a dumped all this oil in the system - where'd it come from? Think I need to be more forth coming today when we chat.

reka12 - covered is Turbo, turbo gasket, diagnostics and $200 towards cleaning of the other parts Chrysler service dept (they sold these jeeps) says needed to be replaced as a result of say a quart of oil leaking from the turbo 'when it blew a seal' - but warranty says can be cleaned. I'm paying for replacement of EGR, Throttle body, Intercooler and hoses and labor for those replacements as we chose to not try having them cleaned and replaced instead as SM stated that these parts should NEVER see oil and they have no procedure to clean these parts.
I'll check to see what we have for a turbo shop in Albuquerque.

Wish I had found this forum before taking it in and having the parts replaced!
M

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:40 am

ok tested the shaft ourselves for movement since I didn't see it move when SM showed it to us. If I try moving it say from intake side I can not see or feel any movement. But when I try moving it from both intake and exhaust sides I can feel it move ever so slightly, say maybe 2-3 thousandths of an inch (or about 3 millimeters). DH thinks that's acceptable on a dry (no oil in it) turbo. Is he correct?

Will call some shops in town that work on turbochargers to find someone to check it out tomorrow before I decide to take the Jeep home.

dgeist · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:12 pm

MissysCRD wrote:

I'm paying for replacement of EGR, Throttle body, Intercooler and hoses and labor for those replacements as we chose to not try having them cleaned and replaced instead as SM stated that these parts should NEVER see oil and they have no procedure to clean these parts.
I'll check to see what we have for a turbo shop in Albuquerque.

Wish I had found this forum before taking it in and having the parts replaced!
M

Missy, if the SM told you the hoses and intercooler never see oil, then he/she has no familiarity with the CRD. Also, although the hoses are a wear item (and legitimately should be, albeit a lot longer than ours last), the intercooler didn't display ANY signs of being bad without the ASSUMPTION that the turbo went out and blew chunks into it.

Why did they replace your throttle body again? IF it was justified, then the cost (along with the EGR replacement) might start to get near what you paid.

Dan

flash7210 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:41 pm

Quote:

But when I try moving it from both intake and exhaust sides I can feel it move ever so slightly, say maybe 2-3 thousandths of an inch (or about 3 millimeters). DH thinks that's acceptable on a dry (no oil in it) turbo. Is he correct?

Depends on how you measured this.
3 mm is a lot more than 3 thousandths of an inch (about the thickness of a human hair).

A good turbo will have an ever-so-slight amount of movement.

onthehunt · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:44 pm

Here is a short video on diagnosing turbine play. Yours sounds fine. Sell it to someone here and recoup some of your money.

http://www.turbochargerpros.com/repair/ ... e-play.htm

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:54 pm

Dan,
Throttle body, intercooler and EGR did not come up as being bad but were recommended to be replaced due SOLELY to the amount of oil the SM says they should not see. Says intercooler can not handle 1 qt of oil which is how much he believes its holding 'from the turbo seal blowing'.
DH and I at the time had no clue about the Liberty's design and so thought what SM was saying was fact. And since SM stated they had no procedure for cleaning these CRD parts strongly encouraged they be replaced. So that's what we did. Now in hindsight (after after being properly educated on this and other forums) I see that these parts were naturally dirty as expected from a system without an EHM or Provent. And I now have spare good throttle body, EGR and IC that just need cleaning.

flash7201 - we simply eyeballed it.
onthe hunt - thank you! Ours moves no more than the acceptable amount - no where near the bad shown in this video!

Found a place ('Diesel Repair' is their name in Albq.) that will check out the turbo tomorrow and verify it's its bad. Will stop there before we head to the dealership and I suspect SM will have to do some back-paddling!
M

reka12 · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:28 pm

Members: $4,100 for replacement

Quote:

I'm paying for replacement of EGR, Throttle body, Intercooler and hoses and labor for those replacements as we chose to not try having them cleaned and replaced instead as SM stated that these parts should NEVER see oil and they have no procedure to clean these parts

?

Don't we have service people on this forum that can run the hours and costs for these items? I hope it is not $4,100 to replace these three parts. And, can't the labor for replacement of the intercooler be handled under the warranty? The only reason she replaced the intercooler was because of the oil from the "blown" turbo. If the original plan by the dealer was to remove, clean and replace the intercooler, the labor for replacement should be covered.

Missy: Thanks for posting your issues. I feel that you and yours have not been treated right. I hope we all can learn from what you went through.

Mike

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:43 pm

$4100 Yeowch!

Can you take pictures of what your old hoses and intercooler look like? We can then tell you if thats a normal amount of oil.

Also, refresh my memory, how many miles are on this Jeep?

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:32 pm

Sir Sam it has 76.5k miles and absolutely no issues felt or heard except as I said seeing oil around turbo which we didn't see at 70k miles and CEL on. I could take pictures but they put the parts threw the cleaner so aren't as dirty as when arrived so guess that won't help you there. Although SM said it didn't clean them up much it still isn't representative of what it was when dismantled.

reka12, I can give you the numbers from the dealership for their labor hrs and parts costs as they faxed me a copy of the parts request for the extended warranty Co:

p&a (whatever that is) $2.42
Turbo $2016.00
Turbo gasket $13.32
*labor for these 3 = 3.5 hrs
Upper intake hose to turbo = 0.5 hrs $194.40
Lower turbo drain tube and $111.20
Lower drain tube gasket = 0.5 hrs $16.57
Intercooler = 2.0 hrs $759.60
Hose IC to Throttle = 0.5 hrs $137.09
Throttle body = 1.5 hrs $478.80
EGR * $255.60
EGR Gasket * $12.24
ORG Coolant *for these 3 = 3.2 hrs $18.95
90deg Vapor hose = 2.0 hrs $5.85
labor = 13.2 hrs Total = $4022.04
they didn't share what they charge per hr for labor...

I should add I had some maintenance done also = transmission, transfer case, and Differential fluids.

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:10 pm

Well just got a call that dealership did another clean per Tech Reps instructions and then ran the jeep about 100 miles and the CEL came back on = P0401. Told DH that they would say this before I even answered the phone. They believe they got a bad EGR when they installed this new one so are ordering another. Could be 1-7 days before they get this part in thry haven't one in stock. So gives me time to get that original Turbo checked. If it's good - then a visit to the dealership and we see what happens for having the repair miss-diagnosed and we bring it home and delete the EGR.
If turbo is indeed bad, I wait for the new EGR as the original may not be good. That may have been the initial problem in the first place when I brought it in or it could have been a hose (haven't thoroughly inspected them yet). Hard for me to tell at this point. Can EGR's be cleaned?
M

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:24 pm

Missy - You need to get your CRD back from them NOW, and then SERIOUSLY think about getting a lawyer. These prices are outrageous AND far above the norm.

If I am adding this up wrong, I apologize, but is your posting showing 13.2 hours at $4022 for the labor cost? If so... That is just over $300 PER HOUR. That is easily triple the going rate from ANY shop, even a dealer! Dealers usually charge about $120/hr, unless it is an RV dealer. Then they charge $175 per hour to change your oil. (Never go to an RV or boat dealer for service unless you hate keeping money)

The price for that turbo is also excessive, the DEALER COST on that item is only $750 (ask me how I know) and the RETAIL sale price over the parts counter is only $1100. They are SOAKING you for that price!

I just added up every price you listed, and came up with 4079.01, INCLUDING the turbo. Something doesn't add up here. Are you CERTAIN that the warranty is paying for anything? The total number you are asked to pay when you pick up the car would NOT be a "Pay us everything now and your warranty will send you a check" kind of deal. Warranty work IS NOT paid by you in advance. If they have an actual dollar amount on the bill for something, that something is NOT being covered by the warranty. You really need to put on a fight with these guys, this sounds like a fishing-for-profit-margin game for them, and sadly I think they think you are a sucker.

The price for the intercooler isn't that outside of the retail ballpark, I'm just sorry they are making you pay that for a part that doesn't break.
You may want to visit moparpartsamerica.com and look up each of these prices, the actual retail prices (MSRP) are listed AND what MPA will sell them for... You can demand price matching from the dealer for each of these parts, as MPA is only an online arm selling dealer parts. (So exactly the same pieces that this stealership would have in stock)

Next problems... What is a 90 degree vapor hose, and what hose ANYWHERE requires 2 hours labor to install? This seems like they are stacking labor charges. A lot.

For example... (EXAMPLE!!!!! MADE UP NUMBERS!!!) If replacement of the EGR is 10 hours, and replacement of the EGR supply hoses (4, 2 coolant, 2 exhaust) are 5 hours each... Yet replacement of the EGR requires removal OF those hoses (it does!) then they don't get to charge you 30 hours of labor for replacing the EGR and the 4 hoses.

Back to reality. There are 4 hoses on the EGR. Two are for the exhaust to flow through. The other two are for the coolant. You (naturally) have to remove all 4 of these to replace the EGR. They don't get to stack the labor charges like that, replacement of the EGR AND the hoses means just one labor book rate - replacement of the EGR.

Throttle body.... Diesels don't have a throttle body. Does the piece you have from the intake have a big circle valve in it, called a butterfly valve? This is the Flow Control Valve, and is part of the emissions controls. This again is a part that DOES NOT NEED REPLACEMENT unless it is completely failed... Even then, the use of this part is not needed. Many members have failed FCV units (the gears on the motor are plastic) and don't even know it. It is there to "smooth" the shutdown of the engine. It doesn't do that, it does basically nothing. What it DOES do, is close off the fresh air intake while your engine is running, to force the engine to ingest even more exhaust flow. If the EGR is stuck closed, this will cause the "insufficient flow" code, because the computer is not seeing the engine's airflow across the MAF sensor drop due to the EGR reducing the need for fresh air. A tune from GDE will fix this by not requiring the FCV to operate. The SEGR device also fixes this, and I personally have removed the big disc from that valve (mine is broken anyway) so that the airflow cannot be restricted. DIESELS DO NOT HAVE OR NEED A THROTTLE PLATE.

The price they are charging for the intake hoses is also exorbitant, the "upper intake hose to turbo" is the hose from the airbox to the turbo. That is a $51 hose, RETAIL.
The Lower Turbo Drain Tube... Is a STATIC PART (nonmoving metal hose) that does not break! Why are they charging for that, and so much!
Drain tube gasket? That is a $1 part AT MOST.
Upper IC to Throttle - That is the "Charge Air Cooler" hose, (Listed by searching on "cooler" on MPA) and is the ONLY part that is close to its retail price. $121 retail.
The OTHER Intercooler hose (the inlet from the turbo to the IC) retails at $180. If they have it listed wrong (as TO turbo instead of FROM turbo TO intercooler... ) then nevermind on that one, it is at least CLOSE to retail... But still push for the lower prices of MPA.

Please fill me in on what I have wrong here, and I will re-figure things to make your fight better. They are charging extortion rates to you, clearly.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:36 pm

EGR cannot be cleaned, and the EGR code may also be from a questionable MAF sensor... OR the OTHER MAF sensor (yes there are 2 of them) on the airbox.

The two sensors on the airbox both are there ONLY for the nanny-system of the emissions controls, as a means to make the vehicle perform terribly if someone were to try and defeat the joyful EGR system that is designed to destroy the engine.

The second sensor is known as the "Mercedes Logo Sensor" and is apparently used by the computer to calculate the static air pressure of teh environment, so that the computer can calculate the suction airflow from the turbo and intake, and possibly the pressure drop that should be in place from opening the EGR and closing the FCV.

Thankfully, GDE has managed to delete that second sensor's extreme reduction in vehicle performance when it is not working properly. On my vehicle with both the GDE and the SEGR, I know for a fact that the EGR system is not causing me any problems - The EGR is not electrically connected (so cannot open) and the FCV has no valve OR operating gears... So cannot close. But the computer thinks all is happy and fine, and my idiot light is dark unless something ACTUALLY is wrong.

Tell the dealer you aren't going to worry about that code anymore, it is a minor thing and you would like your truck back please. Then go in loaded for bear with these prices and your new knowledge.

At worst... Pay with a credit card, then deny the charge later and give the Visa people all the information about the actual prices for the parts, and the fact that they have been making work for themselves by replacing non-faulty components while failing to fix an actual issue. Visa protects EVERY cardholder with the same purchase protections, even if it is a debit card. Just don't use the pin number, it must be a credit transaction. Visa will take a rather dim view of how this dealer has been treating you, and you don't need to dispute the entire amount. If you want to only dispute the parts prices in excess of the MPA prices, and the stacked labor... You can tell Visa that you are only disputing X dollars of the total Y bill amount. They will investigate, and in most cases... You will have your money back pronto, there is nothing the dealership can do to stop it.

Then obviously don't return to that dealer department again, they cannot be trusted to be fair or knowledgeable.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:02 pm

Geordi - you need to chill - and write shorter posts.

- MrMopar said you can clean an EGR - I haven't tried it - I know the originals failed due to stripped plastic gears - but the replacements only clogged from carbon - carbon can be cleaned.
and replacing the throttle valve is common with EGR issue (mine was - but it was under warranty - so I didn't complain - but they kept my Jeep 2 days longer - I kept test driving the Grand)
The throttle body is required for the EGR to work - i.e. you can't get atm pressure exhaust to go into a pressurized intake unless you choke the intake down - that's what our throttle body does - and no it's not a throttle body like a Gasser - it's custom to make the EGR work - not standard diesel - special just for us.

~$200/ hour and full list price is not unusual for a dealership

I would not attribute to malice anything that can just as easily be described as incompetence - and unfortunately incompetence is the standard for Jeep dealerships and CRD's.

Blown Turbo and then some?

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