Blown Turbo and then some?

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

Missy,

The next time at the dealer you should speak with the tech and ask exactly what he did when cleaning the EGR system. The new valve is functioning and so it the throttle. They most likely forgot to clean one of the following: EGR cooler - this should be removed from the housing and blown clean with compressed air or brakekleen if any oily residue is found. The tube from EGR valve to intake manifold - must be completely removed, soaked in cleaning solution and be free of all oily soot buildup. The port on the intake manifold where EGR pipe connects - remove intake elbow and clean port. Most dealers haven't seen enough CRDs to know the most common failure modes. Your experience is a shame and Chrysler should make things right if they care about maintaining a customer base.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:18 pm

When the EGR is supposed to be open, the intake is not under boost. It can't be, or the boost would either escape through the exhaust or would slam the FCV plate closed and pop one of the boost hoses from the pressure backup. The exhaust flow is very much under pressure, as the turbo VNT vanes might be open or closed, but without the engine under load, the intake is operating at close to atmospheric pressure. The exhaust however is still expanding hot gas - which creates pressure. Open that valve, and hot exhaust WILL flow into the engine. You don't need to close off the intake to make the EGR work, it only makes it flow MORE exhaust back into the engine.

I was referring to cleaning the motor assembly of the EGR as cannot be cleaned. The valve itself can certainly be cleared of carbon, but if it has built up carbon, chances are that the motor was straining against that carbon to move the EGR valve, and may have burnt itself out already.

ATXKJ: I am quite calm, but I write long posts so that people can have a clear picture of the information all in one place. I might have been a little presumptive about suggesting a lawyer, but I do feel that Missy may not be getting the best service from this dealer on her car. Retail pricing for parts is one thing, but it doesn't mean that the customer has to accept the prices blindly. Asking for a better rate on parts or price matching with another dealer's online agent (or even a shop selling at a slight markup but STILL not buying at true dealer cost) is only good business. Why pay $10 for a McWhopper burger when you know it comes from the dollar menu? They are entitled to a markup, but at what point do those profits become excessive? It is up to the consumer to answer that, by asking for a better rate or shopping elsewhere. The merchant can compromise or lose business to a more affordable competitor.

Every time I go to the dealer parts counter to purchase something, I ask for the shop rate. Sometimes I get it without question, other times they ask what business name (I have a few that I use, none are auto shops) Sometimes they look up the company name and tell me it isn't in their system... And even then, they say that they can offer me 10-15% off of the original rate. Its all about pressing for the better deal. If they don't want to, the worst they can say is "No" and you are still stuck with the original price. I only get stuck with the original price about 1/10 of the time.

But paying far above retail rate on parts AND labor? That is unfair on the part of the dealer. If you are used to paying $200 / hour for labor, I feel sorry for you. I would have said it was a "in the South" thing about rates of about $120/hr at dealers, except I remember out in Las Vegas where the VW dealer's rate on the wall was $110, and the independent shop in Alb, NM where I got my RV's fuel pump fixed had a sign of $90/hr. But that doesn't excuse the stacking of the book rate on labor that seems like it is happening to Missy. If I read her list wrong, then I will edit my post and fix the errors. But it certainly seems like they are stacking. Book labor exists for a reason - It keeps everyone (hopefully) honest about the rates. Their labor rate should at least compare in the same range as dealers nearby, and it should be posted somewhere. How they apply that rate and the book values for the labor is the question here.

I agree with your last line, and I apologize to everyone if I seemed to be attributing this to malice. This dealer is incompetent, and Missy should not have to pay for that from her vehicle or wallet. Fighting these numbers with knowledge and examples to back her up is the best way to save money at this point.

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:30 am

Geordi and ATXKJ, thanks for replies, I do intend to fight this and having an idea of where to find out what the parts should cost is good to know. Thanks for that suggestion. And the added knowledge I've gained from you all here has been most helpful!
As for the cost, I may have added wrong but that $4022 total was parts only. I don't know the cost for labor, but do know they are stating 13.2 hrs and total bill will be just under $6100. That would be about $157 an hour, if it wasn't for the maintenance that was also done (the fluids I ask them to change out) and do not have a quote for what that cost. From that total of $6100, warranty is paying ~$2060, so that's $4040 to me.

GDE, I do want to talk to the tech if possible as I have a question. If they feel its the EGR, is there a way they can temporarily bypass it to see if the CEL goes off? (without unplugging the MAP in case it's that part that is the problem as not sure it was cleaned yet). I'm trying to prove to them its not the EGR and as you stated a sensor or something that they missed cleaning.
My whole thought is that they totally miss-diagnosed, and hopefully tomorrow we'll get the old turbo verifed as still good will prove this point. Then the battle begins as I only went down this repair path because they said the turbo was bad and blew excess oil into the system, contaminating beyond the point that they could clean and thus RECOMMENDED replacement. But if turbo is bad, well good to know the prices appear padded and I will fight that also.

And the Credit card thing is a good idea especially if I need time to get my ducks in a row.
Thanks all, I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow after we have turbo checked out and I make a visit to the shop. M

reka12 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:56 pm

Lets put this into perspective: I understand that she drove a perfectly running CRD into the dealer because she was concerned about oil on the turbocharger. Did it look like this?

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=55411

This is mine and nothing is wrong with the turbo.

She has yet to drive out because after being fleeced for parts and seemingly unnecessary work and for items that don't even exist, she will be out of $4 thousand dollars. This story reads as one of the worse cases of getting ripped off by any dealer that I have ever heard. $2,000 for a replacement turbo? If the turbo blew and was under warranty, shouldn't the warranty cover the collarteral damage? I feel for you Missy and I hope that you fight this and someone gets fired and the dealer makes it right. It would be ashamed to have to pursue it legally.

These guys are no better than the unscrupulous roadside mechanics that prey on unsuspecting travelers.

AJN · **Joined:** Tue Oct 19, 2010 12:42 am **Posts:** 53

Nothing quite gets the attention of an unscrupulous dealer than the sight of a TV news team doing a story about how they ripped off a customer to the tune of $4000.00+ :POPCORN:

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Thu Dec 09, 2010 11:17 pm

Long story here and I'll try to be brief. JEEP IS HOME!
Called the shop this AM and told them to have my Jeep ready that I was bringing it home today at noon, despite it still throwing p0401 code. Said I didn't believe it was the EGR and if putting a provent on it didn't help clear up the last of the nasties getting to the EGR that "I had a friend that did an ORM and would give me their EGR that was known good" just in case this new EGR was bad.
Then we took the turbo into a diesel repair shop that works on light trucks and diesel cars and their turbo expert said the turbo looked good. He even said he'd state this to the dealership if they wanted to call for his opinion.
Next stop: I went to the parts counter of the dealership and told them I was interested in getting some prices for a turbo and a MAP sensor. I was armed with the prices I obtained from the MPA site. They told me MSRP and I said I could get them cheaper from MPA, so the counter person took those prices to the parts manager who said he'd match MPA's prices.

Finally I went to my service manager and told him I had someone check the turbo and they felt it was good. Said I was a bit upset that we went down this whole repair path based on that turbo being bad. I also pointed out I felt all the parts prices were padded and had put the MPA prices next to theirs on the parts request showing the difference. Well - SM got the shop parts manager on the phone and asked him why parts counter was giving a different (better) price than SM was getting from shop parts manager? SM gave the shop parts manager my list and who he'd review it and the prices on MPA website. Then SM, HIS service manager, the tech, DH and I sat down to discuss the repair.

They said that if I felt the old turbo was still good that they'd put it back in and not charge for labor around this turbo, but since warranty already covered that cost I said I'd leave it in and hold onto the old turbo for someday or a rebuild. Afterall mine had over 75k miles and this warrantied one was new! Then tech and I discussed why he felt the turbo was bad - again it was all about the amount of oil they saw in the system. That and the codes were the ONLY reason he felt turbo was bad. Again let me remind you. My oil level was still good so IF I dumped all this oil into the system because of a blown turbo seal, where did it come from? I calmly discussed my understanding of how a CRD at this milage would display that amount of oil, said no dis-respect to the tech's abilities but that in my opinion I felt the CRD's were still mis-understood and that Chryslers' theories and diagnostic flow charts just don't reflect reality. They even mentioned how they have had other CRDs in lately near similar mileage and in similar states and had fixed them. Well if they replaced everything like mine, yeah it fixed it. When I also pointed out that the MAf and MAP sensors being dirty could also aide in throwing some of these codes the Tech said the Jeep didn't have a MAP sensor. When I explained that it did and had a part# for it he said well that's the other sensor with the MAF sensor by the air filter. I then explained where the MAP sensor was really located. again only proves how little these Techs are taught in their Liberty CRD class (of which he attended) and so this was not cleaned, (and also why I asked parts for that price quote as I suspected that). The SM's manager said he'd go over the labor costs again, taking the warrantied work out of the equation and wait for parts to give him the new prices. After an hour I came up gaining back into my pocket $1400 off the original price. All parts now priced at MPA's "your price" plus shipping. Told them thank you for working with me on making this more right. And that if at the time we first noticed this issue if I had known then what I know now that I wouldn't have come to the dealership at all as I was mistaken in thinking that over the past 5 years delaership techs would have learned more about the CRD, but sadly they have not. This manager explained how they wouldn't make money if they went "off the path" for every repair and had to follow the flow charts and the tech reps directions.

Well - I'm tired and this is long and probably not nearly complete. I'll add more tomorrow if need be. I would like to truly thank everyone here for the added ammo I needed to make this situation better. And I do want to continue to push the issue within Chrysler about how their flow charts don't apply too well on these vehicles. But that's another day and now I can rest a bit.

By the way, They did put a 2nd new EGR on this AM after I called, and then added some diesel cleaner to the fuel but still had the p0401 code. After I left dealership I went a few miles to grocery shop and when I left the store - no more CEL and after a few other stops and a 65 mile drive home up into the mountains still no CEL. Even without the Provent, which gets put on tomorrow.

I look at it this way - in the end I'm paying $2600 from my own pocket for the Transfer case, transmission and differential fluids maintence along with a new Turbo, intercooler, Throttle body (butterfly) and EGR and hoses associated with these parts. I now have a clean system and with adding the Provent will keep it that way. So it's like a "do-over" to help keep my Jeep in better shape than before when I didn't know how nasty they could get if left stock. I am a glass half-full person...
And many Lessons learned.

Good night,
M

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:26 am

$2600 still hurts, but congratulations! That is both excellent news, and a score for the good guys against inexperienced dealers. :5SHOTS:

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:18 am

Missy,

Good work, you get a star, and have passed the preliminary CRD diesel class 101.

reka12 · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:46 am

Missy: Your post should be a must read before taking one of our CRDs to the dealer for a worrisome condition. Unfamiliarity with the vehicle systems, ripping you off on pricing, not being straight about the work done and the issues at hand and the rest of the story.

Way to educate yourself and not roll over. You handled this correctly.

I hope you follow-up with Jeep corporate. They may not care but they should know.

Mike

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:48 am

racertracer wrote:

Missy,

Good work, you get a star, and have passed the preliminary CRD diesel class 101.

Missy. Go to the head of the class :BANANA:

You actually were able to demonstrate to the dealer that you just might know more about YOUR crd then the tech that we all really should feel sorry for :SOMBRERO:

LOST members have millions of miles of experience on diesel engines and collectively have come up with solutions. The WWW is a great thing :wink:

I was a field technician for many years working on computers and know his situation well. We all know there's a few design deficiencies in our crd's. The tech had no input on the design and he's also not allowed to suggest a provent to correct one of the problems or any other non authorized modifications. There are a very limited numbers of CRD's in the US and the tech sees few if any on a regular basis but is expected to be an expert on them :dead:

The big problem with dealer service departments is they are like the federal government with multiple layers of "service managers" :5SHOTS:

The technician again has to support all of them. Thankfully I only had one service manager :BINGO:

dritchie · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:02 am

Man, if I ever have to go to the dealer again, I want to take Missy with me!! :SOMBRERO:

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:05 am

reka12 wrote:

They may not care but they should know.
Mike

I recently received a survey about my Chrysler experience. One of the questions was “would I consider buying another Chrysler vehicle” with a 1 to 10 answer. That lead to questions as to why not and one specifically asked about “problems with my current vehicle”. Again a 1 to 10 answer.

I have a Chrysler extended warranty and have seen a big attitude change at my dealer in the last several visits. It may or may not be the conversation I had with the general manager but I now have the transmission and torque converter we should have had from day one. I think the window regulator repair is a sign of change at Chrysler/Fiat/Jeep.

I think that Italian fellow is serious about what needs to be done at Chrysler :BANANA:

Time will tell :2cents:

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:45 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

reka12 wrote:

They may not care but they should know.
Mike

I recently received a survey about my Chrysler experience. One of the questions was “would I consider buying another Chrysler vehicle” with a 1 to 10 answer. That lead to questions as to why not and one specifically asked about “problems with my current vehicle”. Again a 1 to 10 answer.

I have a Chrysler extended warranty and have seen a big attitude change at my dealer in the last several visits. It may or may not be the conversation I had with the general manager but I now have the transmission and torque converter we should have had from day one. I think the window regulator repair is a sign of change at Chrysler/Fiat/Jeep.

I think that Italian fellow is serious about what needs to be done at Chrysler :BANANA:

Time will tell :2cents:

I'm hopeful that you are right Joe... But I'm not holding my breath. They still have the same dead weight at the top in the Chrysler arm, which means that the same bad decisions will be made again. "Marketing experiment" with NO marketing at all, comes to mind.

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:09 pm

Thanks all for the kinds words. Means a lot to me that you feel I've 'graduated' CRD class 101. And also that it's felt I made the most out of a bad situation. You have NO IDEA how much restraint and effort this took for a hot-headed Silician like me to deal with as calmly and professionally as I could. I was more furious than Geordi's earlier post that some felt was pretty worked up (altho I was thankful that he too felt my pain).

Fortunately my work and life lessons have taught me how to assess a problem, understand it and find a solution WITH DATA to back it up. Felt good to go in 'loaded' yesterday. They would have never known the week prior I was clueless!

Sad thing is if I was able to learn that much in such a short time, so could they. I now believe if one cannot do the diagnosing and repairs themselves they'd be better off finding any reliable independent diesel mechanic who will work WITH you to get the job done. Someone who will work 'out of the box' and doesn't have their hands tied.
Well off to install my Provent...
M

tworock · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:59 pm

Good for you, Missy.

I'm a part-time Santa Fe guy......

I seem to have missed something. Was your warranty work covered by an extended warranty, and was it Chrysler's?
I'm slightly worried about your info on "collateral damage" as I've got one of Chrysler's.

One last thing. I tried to get my dealership to give me the failed thermostat that was replaced last week so I could send it to Sir Sam, and no go. How did they let you keep your parts?

If I'm rehashing stuff that was covered in this thread, don't bother to answer, I'll re-read it tomorrow when I've got more time. Any new info that addresses these questions, let me know.

tworock · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:05 pm

Maybe I should have asked if the warranty work was "uncovered"...........

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:05 pm

Impressive - Great Job!

MissysCRD · **Posted:** Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:18 pm

tworock,
the warranty was not Chryslers, it was a third party. I have a bumper to bumper coverage w/exclusions but all these parts (except hoses) were covered as I also got the additional emmission coverage (knowing how unreliable the EGRs are). But they weren't paid for by warranty because warranty co. said parts could be cleaned and Chrysler tech said parts were "recommended" to be replaced and not "failed". Chrysler had no procedure for cleaning these parts and thus why they recommended replacement but Chrysler would not change their wording to parts failed. Trust me - I tried everything with the warranty co. and even had a three way call with them and my SM from Chrysler.

I'm told the Chyrsler extended warranty is better - but then if the part didn't fail?

As far as the old parts, I asked for them to try to continue to fight the warranty coverage - and since warranty co. is 3rd party, maybe that's why? I guess I could see Chrysler keeping the part if they comp'd you for a core charge or such in your final bill? Heck - I did pay for them anyway when I bought the vehicle so they are mine.
M

Blown Turbo and then some?

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