CRD Manual tranny swap

HugeKJ05 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 6:44 pm

So, I have found many discussions on this topic but none of which ended in an actual swap taking place. Has there been a swap here in the U.S yet?

If there has not, well, I just may be the first, which isn't always fun. I have come up with a combo that may work for a while but ultimately grenade but at least it will get the ball rolling.

Parts List:
1992-2003 Dodge Dakota 3.9L bell housing. OEM mates to AX-15 and/or NV3550 (found one at a near by yard for $75
AX-15/np231
Custom flywheel
GM clutch (McLeod twin disc RST) 10 spline x 1.125"

***IF IT IS IN GREEN, THEN I HAVE ALREADY SOURCED IT***

I am going to have the fly made to except an off the shelf gm clutch since they are popular clutch diameters and I will be able to change spline dimensions later if needed. The RST is a great clutch and I have used it in many Vettes. It has great feel, good wear characteristics and is still probably cheaper then ordering in from the UK.

Now the AX-15 may not hold up for too long, but if I drive it nicely, I can at least work out the electrical bugs and by the, I can start figuring out how to get a more robust gear box in. Also,I know the nsg370 can be sourced from the uk and behind the 4.0L and the 3.7L but I have not been able to confirm the bell will bolt up in either case and ultimately, it may grenade too. The route I am taking at least gives me a bell housing that I can later adapt if need be.

The next task is to get some flex plate specs in order to make the new flywheel.
1. I need to find out if any other application uses the same bolt pattern at the crank. Any info on this?

2. I need to know ring gear diameter for the starter. Also, any info?

If I can't find this soon, then I will need to purchase an oem flex and send it to my flywheel manufacture.

Throw out bearing config should come a little later.

Green Diesel Engineering, if you read this, please chime in. I greatly need your thoughts on the ecu aspect. I have the hot tune now, but for obvious reasons, that will need to be changed up for a bit.

Thanks if advance for any input,

Jason

HugeKJ05 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:17 pm

Just got off the phone with McLeod, 4 week turn around, $600-800 for the custom fly. Ordering an oem flex tomorrow from mopar or mopar parts america and I will reverse it and create solid works and autocad dxf drawings.

CATCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:29 pm

You rock.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:04 pm

I'm very interested however, How to you intend to handle the computers?

CIMARRON13 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:30 pm

Seems like GDE could flash the computer. I believe they have one for the Australian market.

LibertyCRD · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 8:33 pm

This will be the bomb. The AX-15 was used in the YJ Jeeps behind the 4.0L. Some guys swapped GM V8s in...and reportedly the AX-15 was fine with it.

Will subscribe to this thread now. :POPCORN:

flman · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:22 pm

He can have my ECU in exchange, it has that error that thinks it is connected to a manual transmission. :pepper:

Roostre · **Joined:** Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:57 pm **Posts:** 195

I would love to see how this turns out!

I owned a '94 YJ 4.0L with the AX 5 speed; it took a beating and is still going strong for the guy that bought it.

HugeKJ05 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:39 pm

To be honest, I am not sure how many comps i need to deal with.

The auto trans comp will be gone and I hope GDE can turn a few things off in my ecu. I think the body control should be fine. I am working on a tone ring now to use with the full float 9 I intend to swap in once I have the jeep running again, so it should still see mph and what not. The t-case signal i can either do with out or later swap in a 241or. With this current snow storm, I really like having both, the full time and part time, but now since I made the decision to make the think absurd, a built d300 may find its way in since I have a few around.

Axles will go in after I have the trans working correctly and no cel's. Full float rear 9 and either a hp d44 or hybrid 9.

HugeKJ05 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 9:40 pm

flman wrote:

He can have my ECU in exchange, it has that error that thinks it is connected to a manual transmission. :pepper:

Seriously or are you playing? lol

MrMopar64 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 10:34 pm

You want to find for yourself:

A flywheel/clutch kit from a most-recent London Taxi in the UK. They're powered by the 2.5L version of the R2816 in the KJ, and has the same bolt-pattern on the crankshaft for a direct bolt-on. It's a solid mass flywheel, so no dual-mass to break with the higher-torque levels from GDE.

While you're ordering parts from the LTI, get a bell-housing as well. It'll bolt right up to the MTX or ATX engine adapter plate (NSG370 and 545RFE used the same bellhousing pattern for KJ diesel). The bellhousing from the LTI application is what I call a "normal" bellhousing (like on a SBC from a 60s/70s car) and already has a mount on the side for a hydraulic slave cylinder. The NSG370 has, of course, an integrated bellhousing with the case.

The NSG370 as you know was the std trans for the KJ 05-07 diesel, and also still be used in the most recent model year in KA/KK/JK diesels in Europe. It'll handle anything this engine can deliver (the DMF is always the weak link, but you'll use a solid flywheel anyways so no issues).

HugeKJ05 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:01 pm

MrMopar64 wrote:

You want to find for yourself:

A flywheel/clutch kit from a most-recent London Taxi in the UK. They're powered by the 2.5L version of the R2816 in the KJ, and has the same bolt-pattern on the crankshaft for a direct bolt-on. It's a solid mass flywheel, so no dual-mass to break with the higher-torque levels from GDE.

While you're ordering parts from the LTI, get a bell-housing as well. It'll bolt right up to the MTX or ATX engine adapter plate (NSG370 and 545RFE used the same bellhousing pattern for KJ diesel). The bellhousing from the LTI application is what I call a "normal" bellhousing (like on a SBC from a 60s/70s car) and already has a mount on the side for a hydraulic slave cylinder. The NSG370 has, of course, an integrated bellhousing with the case.

The NSG370 as you know was the std trans for the KJ 05-07 diesel, and also still be used in the most recent model year in KA/KK/JK diesels in Europe. It'll handle anything this engine can deliver (the DMF is always the weak link, but you'll use a solid flywheel anyways so no issues).

I want to avoid ordering parts from the UK. Reason for the custom fly is its cost efficient in this case and I will have plenty of clutch options.

I didn't follow you on the small block gm bell or the MTX ATX. When you say mtx, I think Ford focus trans, lol. I have a sbc bell housing I was saving for just a random time. Do you have a link to what you are talking about?

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:16 pm

X2 to Dual Mass Fly Wheels SUCK!!!
More Fly Wheel Mass is Better in most cases.
Check out the TDI forums where there have been lots of exploded Dual Mass Fly Wheels along with Light Truck Forums where Dual Mass Fly Wheels have failed. Dual Mass Fly Wheel = I.E.D. in your bell housing.

When you get your setup together, spray on some Stress Coat. If you have any weak points the Stress Coat will have lots of cracks. When I made a custom adapter plate to hang a 1.6L VW Turbo Diesel onto a Type II trans, I did not follow my own advice and had to redo the adapter plate out of solid steel. Then I had to run external beams to handle the extra torque, too long of a story.
If you don't want to hunt and fight for the London Taxi flywheel and bell housing. Another flywheel that comes close can have the hub cut out, a new hub made, and TIG welded into the hole. The CRD flex plate hub can be the template for the pattern and the ring gear can be removed by cutting the stitch welds, making the surface a little larger than the ring gear ID and the ring gear can be heated up and tapped onto the fly wheel. Then have a speed shop type machine shop balance the fly wheel.
Been there done that on the VW I put the 1.6L Turbo Diesel into.
As far as the clutch goes, the splines in the hub counts as does the diameter. A competent clutch re-man shop can make what ever you want if you can't get what you want off the shelf. Just make sure you match up the torque out put of the engine the clutch is from with the CRD and your tune. Heck, places like Summit may have a Chrysler (Hemi?)clutch kit that will bolt on and work.
When I had my Perkins 354 Turbo Diesel in my C-30 I traded off on my CRD, I just did my home work and bought a clutch for a C-60 that dropped right in and worked great.

If you need to custom a bell housing and have it Sand Cast, 356 Alloy is commonly used in Transmission cases and available from foundries who do sand casting.

Good luck

HugeKJ05 · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:32 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

X2 to Dual Mass Fly Wheels SUCK!!!

When you get your setup together, spray on some Stress Coat. If you have any weak points the Stress Coat will have lots of cracks. When I made a custom adapter plate to hang a 1.6L VW Turbo Diesel onto a Type II trans, I did not follow my own advice and had to redo the adapter plate out of solid steel.
If you don't want to hunt and fight for the London Taxi flywheel and bell housing. Another flywheel that comes close can have the hub cut out, a new hub made, and TIG welded into the hole. The CRD flex plate hub can be the template for the pattern and the ring gear can be removed by cutting the stitch welds, making the surface a little larger than the ring gear ID and the ring gear can be heated up and tapped onto the fly wheel. Then have a speed shop type machine shop balance the fly wheel.
Been there done that on the VW I put the 1.6L Turbo Diesel into.
As far as the clutch goes, the splines in the hub counts as does the diameter. A competent clutch re-man shop can make what ever you want if you can't get what you want off the shelf. Just make sure you match up the torque out put of the engine the clutch is from with the CRD and your tune. Heck, places like Summit may have a Chrysler (Hemi?)clutch kit that will bolt on and work.
When I had my Perkins 354 Turbo Diesel in my C-30 I traded off om my CRD, I just did my home work and bought a clutch for a C-60 that dropped right in and worked great.

If you need to custom a bell housing and have it Sand Cast, 356 Alloy is commonly used in Transmission cases and available from foundries who do sand casting.

Good luck

Thanks for the input. Are you saying to use stress coat to inspect parts like at the machine shops or as a coating to use to aid in inspections?

The great thing about having McLeod manufacture my flywheel is that it will be solid, have there standard clutch pattern for multiple clutch setups and it's SFI approved, meaning, I can beat on it. The clutch I am using is a McLeod RST twin disc organic clutch rated for 800hp so it should handle at least 700 ft lbs. I ran one on a 2009 ZO6 I put twin turbos on and the clutch was just fantastic. That car made 646 tq at the wheels.

If this all goes well, I may private label a bolt clutch and fly kit for the CRD here in the US. That way this wont be such a crap shoot any more.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Dec 27, 2010 11:49 pm

HugeKJ05 wrote:

warp2diesel wrote:

X2 to Dual Mass Fly Wheels SUCK!!!

When you get your setup together, spray on some Stress Coat. If you have any weak points the Stress Coat will have lots of cracks. When I made a custom adapter plate to hang a 1.6L VW Turbo Diesel onto a Type II trans, I did not follow my own advice and had to redo the adapter plate out of solid steel.
If you don't want to hunt and fight for the London Taxi flywheel and bell housing. Another flywheel that comes close can have the hub cut out, a new hub made, and TIG welded into the hole. The CRD flex plate hub can be the template for the pattern and the ring gear can be removed by cutting the stitch welds, making the surface a little larger than the ring gear ID and the ring gear can be heated up and tapped onto the fly wheel. Then have a speed shop type machine shop balance the fly wheel.
Been there done that on the VW I put the 1.6L Turbo Diesel into.
As far as the clutch goes, the splines in the hub counts as does the diameter. A competent clutch re-man shop can make what ever you want if you can't get what you want off the shelf. Just make sure you match up the torque out put of the engine the clutch is from with the CRD and your tune. Heck, places like Summit may have a Chrysler (Hemi?)clutch kit that will bolt on and work.
When I had my Perkins 354 Turbo Diesel in my C-30 I traded off om my CRD, I just did my home work and bought a clutch for a C-60 that dropped right in and worked great.

If you need to custom a bell housing and have it Sand Cast, 356 Alloy is commonly used in Transmission cases and available from foundries who do sand casting.

Good luck

Thanks for the input. Are you saying to use stress coat to inspect parts like at the machine shops or as a coating to use to aid in inspections?

The great thing about having McLeod manufacture my flywheel is that it will be solid, have there standard clutch pattern for multiple clutch setups and it's SFI approved, meaning, I can beat on it. The clutch I am using is a McLeod RST twin disc organic clutch rated for 800hp so it should handle at least 700 ft lbs. I ran one on a 2009 ZO6 I put twin turbos on and the clutch was just fantastic. That car made 646 tq at the wheels.

If this all goes well, I may private label a bolt clutch and fly kit for the CRD here in the US. That way this wont be such a crap shoot any more.

Spray the Stress Coat onto the bell housing, transmission housing, and transfer case adapters. Then take it our on a test drive on a trail and towing, any over stressed points will have lots of fine little cracks close together. A quick and dirty way to test for any problems that will bite you and much cheaper than forking over $10+K to some PE for Finite Element Analysis that may be nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Even though some manufactures with good models (created by lots of in field stress analysis data) successfully use FEA, I have seen Finite Element Analysis reports that were more worthless than the recycle value of the TP you used and flushed, to say the least, often they over look the painfully obvious and do not have a good model to go by.
Call Stress Coat and let them recommend their product for your application, tell them you are an independent off road equipment development contractor job shop.

KYMidnight · **Posted:** Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:24 am

GDE has said on their forums that they already have the manual tranny tunes done. I dunno how much (if anything) they'd charge for the tune since you've already bought the hot tune from them.
Take lots of pics! I'm sure there is significant interest in this project

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:34 am

Okay why do you want a manual trans? If your plan on doing a SFA swap the last thing you want is a manual trans unless you like fixing broken driveshafts often,you can also forget any hope of keeping the 242 behind a manual also as you will get severe driveablility issues and why is was never offered behind a manual trans.

Don't say it's for better crawl ratio or anything like that as the auto you already have can be built(for a whole lot less $$$$) and will still end up with a better crawl ratio after you add in the TC's torque multiplication in.

HugeKJ05 · **Posted:** Tue Dec 28, 2010 12:58 am

tjkj2002 wrote:

Okay why do you want a manual trans? If your plan on doing a SFA swap the last thing you want is a manual trans unless you like fixing broken driveshafts often,you can also forget any hope of keeping the 242 behind a manual also as you will get severe driveablility issues and why is was never offered behind a manual trans.

Don't say it's for better crawl ratio or anything like that as the auto you already have can be built(for a whole lot less $$$$) and will still end up with a better crawl ratio after you add in the TC's torque multiplication in.

I don't like the auto trans, easy as that. I enjoy driving a manual shift. Nope, can't keep the 242 but I don't care, a 231 will work for now. I also will not have to think about shift points or trans pressure or any of that bs in the tune. Manual trans don't tend to toast either. I can rebuild manual transmissions but don't want to get into autos. Plus pre-running a jeep with an auto sucks. If I need a lower gear, I will toss a d300 or a 241or in. Really, its all about the fun factor

Why will I destroy drive shafts? I know plenty of people and have done many T18 swaps for Jeep owners who wheel their jeep without regard every weekend and drive shafts are not usually the problem.

CRD Joe · **Posted:** Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:19 am

You should really try and get a hold of a European manual. At least find out what the gear ratios in the European and try to match that as closely as possible in whatever you do put in your truck.

I too would love to have a six speed manual. Mostly because I like driving manuals AND you can more easily get better MPG's out of a manual. That said its probably cost prohibitive for me.

flman · **Posted:** Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:48 am

HugeKJ05 wrote:

flman wrote:

He can have my ECU in exchange, it has that error that thinks it is connected to a manual transmission. :pepper:

Seriously or are you playing? lol

Yeah, Keith at GDE said it could not be cleared, it throws a code, but I forgot what the code is?

CRD Manual tranny swap

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