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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 8:02 am 
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Bigbillyboy

I think your trouble shooting process would be a great addition to the CRD tech section :BANANA: I'm sure there will be more instances of "cranks but no fire" for us in the future.

Joe

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Long posts on troubleshooting are good things

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:56 pm 
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I would very much apprecaite you posting the procedure. I'm dealing with a similar issue.

Thanks,
Tom

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:55 pm 
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Sorry for the delay, work has been busy.
I'm not going to guarantee this is the approved troubleshooting method, but it worked for me.

First thing I did was upgeade filterhead and install lift pump to ensure no air in fuel. Once I was. Positive there was no air in the system, I followed the following diagnostics, which was a mixture of info from many different sources

Following a suggestion from the guys at the cummins commonrail forums, I shot a little either into the intake and cranked it over. Doing this, the liberty started and ran fine. Under heavy load conditions, the jeep would defalt to limp mode, but it would still run.

Next step was to take off the fuel return rail and check for excessive retuen from one or several injectors. After removing the fuel rail, (keep it in one piece and be very gentle with the plastic fittings that clip into the top of the injector. If you break one, you get to buy the whole fuel rail for $45.00 - ask me how I know. Also, don't drop any of the clips, as they are dealer only for $50/ea, and not available locally...) I insterted a 5" long piece of clear vinyl tubing into the top of each of the injectors. I cranked for 10 seconds and looked at the levels in each tube. They were all at the same level, and about 1/4" up the tube. Which is normal. If one or more is significantly higher ( I read that it could be 3-4 inches of fuel after 10 second of cranking) then you have a failed injector preventing rail pressure buildup. This was not the case for me. Also, don't break the plastic fuel return junction (where all three fuel return lines join up) before heading to the tank, as it is dealer only and runs $97 and not available for a week. I built one out of brass fittings from home depot for about $20. Much sturdier.

Next, I reinstalled the fuel return rail, and pulled the line off of the pressure control valve at the rear of the fuel rail. I cranked for 10 seconds and had a significant amount of fuel drain out. While cranking, but not running, this valve should be held shut preventing fuel from flowing at all. In my case, the valve had failed, once replaced, the jeep started easily.

It is my understanding that if the PCV had been good, the only thing that could cause low pressure would be the CP3 pump. From my reading, the pump itself rarely fails, but the MPROP valve bolted to it fails regularly.

I was able to give the part number off the PCV to a local diesel shop and they had the part next day for $449. The dealer was a week out and $849.

I tested the components in this order as it was the best way I could figure out to determine with the highest degree of certainty which component had failed without buying needless expensive components.

Fyi, that PCV valve is a very complex item. It is a normally closed valve. It is held shut with a spring, but gets additional closing force from an electromagnet. The spring itself does not provide enough force to get the rail pressure above 5000psi. The ECM varies the current to the PCV, the higher the current, the more closing force, and the higher rail pressure. Somehow this works in balance with the ECM sending a signal to the MPROP valve which both maintain predetermined rail pressure.

Hope this helps someone.

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Last edited by bigbillyboy on Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:47 pm 
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Nice root cause analysis on the PCV. There have been a growing number of these failing on the KJ. Anyone know if this part fails on other diesel applications?

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:16 pm 
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I found a few on the sprinter vans, none on the benz CDI's (these two vehicles have virtually identical injection systems, but different part numbers for the PCV) and the dodge common rail does not use a PCV. It seems to have a pressure relief valve that, when activated due to overpressurization, must be replaced. What I found was that, by far, failed injectors (usually just one) was the root cause of crank but no start/ long cranking. Second was failed MPROP, whis was fairly common. Interestingly, I found no instances where a cp3 had been verified as failed. In most cases a new MPROP fixed the problem, and in the other cases, the entire pump was replaced but the new pump always came with a new MPROP. There were several "internet legends", ie "imy brother knows a guy that knows a guy that works for Bosch..." That stated 99%of the returned cp3's were not bad. Not ready to quote that as fact, but it was an interesting adventure for me. More so know that the jeep starts for my wife every time

Jason

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:46 am 
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Jason - thanks very much for posting this.

My #4 injector was spewing fuel compared to the other 3 (way more than the 3 to 4 inches you indicated) and I was also able to confirm the PCV was holding tight. Looks like its time for a new injector.

I agree with Joe ... the write-up should be in the tech section with a title of "trouble shooting fuel system" or something. I've learned a lot from my problem and from Keith at GDE... there might be something I could contribute as well (more to come, assuming the injector fixes my problem).

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2005 KJ CRD
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OME lift | Treadwright Warden 265/75R16 | front & rear hitches | Mopar skids
Uniden Pro 520XL | GlowShift boost gauge| WeatherTech mats | some other funny business


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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:18 am 
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Thanks BigBillyBoy..... for posting.

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:13 pm 
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@ sidebrake - let me know if it fixes your problem. I know it worked for my problem (not an injector problem), but would love some confirmation that that the suggested diagnostic for injector failure is also correct.

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:08 pm 
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Definitely - will do. The injector is ordered... so I'll keep you posted.

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2005 KJ CRD
GDE Eco tune | Ram/Cummins lift pump | Samco IC hoses
OME lift | Treadwright Warden 265/75R16 | front & rear hitches | Mopar skids
Uniden Pro 520XL | GlowShift boost gauge| WeatherTech mats | some other funny business


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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Just a follow up here...
The injector was the problem and it is now resolved.

Thanks again for the post!

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2005 KJ CRD
GDE Eco tune | Ram/Cummins lift pump | Samco IC hoses
OME lift | Treadwright Warden 265/75R16 | front & rear hitches | Mopar skids
Uniden Pro 520XL | GlowShift boost gauge| WeatherTech mats | some other funny business


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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:11 pm 
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So, my buddy's CRD will crank but not start. I have eliminated all other options (injectors, MPROP, rail PCV, etc). Also, have eliminated air in fuel via lift pump. It starts just fine with a shot of starting fluid. I noticed that is smokes alot of black smoke and he said that when driving it prior, it would smoke alot. This is in contrast to my jeep that doesn't ever smoke. I'm wondering if he has a bad injector and it is dripping into the engine and leaking that way instead of the return bypass way. Any body know how to check this?

Also, when driving it if you get on it to accelarate, it will just die. no code. if you baby it, it seems to run just fine. We replaced the MPROP valve thinking that might be the culprit, but no. Occassionally we get a major fuel leak code, but generally not.

so, I'm thinking injector leaking into the cylinder. anyone know how to check?

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:24 pm 
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bigbillyboy wrote:
so, I'm thinking injector leaking into the cylinder. anyone know how to check?


Some where here there's a good trouble shooting guide for your problem including a leaky injector :shock: Maybe papaindigo will search it out for you :JEEPIN:

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 Post subject: Re: crank, but no start....HELP
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:52 am 
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I see I never replied to this. I think they are refering to the thread at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=59446&p=661763&hilit=system#p661763

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