What are different ways to store large quantities of diesel?

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:36 pm

I’m looking for an easy way to store B10/B20. I don’t need anything huge, but I would like to store approximately 300 gallons total of diesel indoors. I like the idea of storing diesel on a stand and being able to fuel-up by a gravity fed system. I’ve also considered buying a few 55 gallon plastic drums and a pump. I’m really not sure what I want to do, so I thought I’d ask here first. Any thoughts?

I'll be transporting the fuel myself, which could be a problem. It would be easier for me to use 15 gallon drums for transportation. A 15 gallon drum loaded with diesel weighs approximately 120-130lbs. I could then transfer from the 15 to the 55. I could always buy a drum cart to make the 55 gallon drums a little more movable. Anyway, I’m thinking aloud.

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:07 am

I have a neighbor that has about a 300 gallon heating fuel oil tank with a nozzle connected to the bottom. He just park downhill from it and fills his trucks, backhoes or tractors.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:59 am

I use a hitch-tray to hold 2 15 gallon poly kegs on the back of my CRD when going to get them filled, and I have an air-pressure system set up to drain them. Use a compressor with regulator to put no more than 10psi out, and the kegs just transfer beautifully. MUCH cheaper than a power pump, although I do have a couple of the "Gasboy" style pumps that I've used too.

The hard part is getting to the very bottom of the tanks. I hate the idea of leaving a certain amount of fuel in the bottom of the tank.

As for large storage, you might be better off looking into a 250 gallon "Tote" made from translucent poly (High Density Polyethylene or HDPE) that won't be attacked by the bio, yet will allow you to see the content level. Those totes can be moved by a pallet jack, come in a mesh cage that adds structural strength to the plastic, and they usually have a 2-inch drain on the bottom or you can pump from the top with a dip tube.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:59 am

New Mexico is not Illinois, but if you put a pump on your nozzle that has a meter, you can keep track of the gallons just in case the Tax Man/State becomes a jerk like Illinois has. Also a pump will fill you rig faster than gravity, especially if you add a good filter, in the past I used both, gravity works but is slow unless you put your tank up high you may fall asleep filling up.

FYI: The Chevy Volt and other electric cars like the Leaf have transmitters that send a signal so the Power Company can tell how many KW and when you did the charge. Of course, the Government has access to that info and sooner or later the Electric car owners will be paying road tax. :ROTFL:

They better be putting up wind turbines and solar panels with inverters to get out of the tax. :ROTFL:

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:51 pm

Warp, where did you hear that about the Volt / Leaf? That is a new one on me, but.. Most people already have a "meter" that will determine how much they pay. Its called an Electric Meter, and it is on their house. I can see the scum of Kaliforniastan forcing their subjects to pay more based on when the vehicle is charged at home. But if you are talking some kind of transmitter, then their has to be a receiver somewhere. It is much easier to simply roll it in with the already-stupid-high power bill.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:09 pm

geordi wrote:

Warp, where did you hear that about the Volt / Leaf? That is a new one on me, but.. Most people already have a "meter" that will determine how much they pay. Its called an Electric Meter, and it is on their house. I can see the scum of Kaliforniastan forcing their subjects to pay more based on when the vehicle is charged at home. But if you are talking some kind of transmitter, then their has to be a receiver somewhere. It is much easier to simply roll it in with the already-stupid-high power bill.

Its' a Smart Grid chip tied into the 120V power inlet. The receiver is at the Power Companies if and when they want to tie it in. Smart Grid is a Utility Company/Government Scam to suck us all out of more money if we let them get away with it. In my town if you sign up for green energy, you pay more for your electric power. In my town, only Idiots are signing up.
Putting other signals down the grid is not new for a period of time, some of the hotels sent the internet signal through the hotel power grid. Companies are now producing control panel components that send their signals down the same wires that carry the power using a bus system ~kinda like what our CRDs use. Many college radio stations have used the grid to carry their radio programs for many years.
For those of us who are into performance vehicles Diesel or Gasoline, we have a Free Spirit Attitude and grasp onto creative ideas. Those who buy Electric cars are more of the type who will put a full tube of Super Glue on their hands and grab their ankles. For those who want to make the Political or Status statement of buying an electric car, very very few will have the thought of coming up with a way to block the transmitter signal or want to do so, they have bought into the PR scam.
Letting another cat out of the bag, the US Navy has developed new nuclear fuel rods that can not be turned into a terrorist weapon. With the new nuclear fuel rod technology, 95% can be recycled into fresh rods that can be reused, eliminating the need to store the waste. Existing waste and old nuclear weapons can be turned into the new fuel rods as well. Medical nuclear waste will then become the biggest nuclear problem, T.G. What will be left over will be at a lower radiation level than the ore that is taken out of the ground. Optimistically, I foresee the radiation level will be comparable to Granite. All of the major elected officials have been briefed and the technology will be shared, even with China. China is building a nuclear fuel rod recycling facility right now. Even the top brass at Green Peace have been briefed and if you listen very carefully, Green Peace top brass supports the new nuclear fuel rod technology. The one group that is in the pitch black dark is the News Media, most of whom are overpaid total Idiots.
It will take years to upgrade the grid and build the plants to get the Nuclear plants up and running or refurbished. To buy us some time, Wind Turbines and Natural Gas fired engines will supplement the grid. Wind Turbines can not exceed 20% of the grid power before we start having power management problems, 10% is an optimum point.
For those who doubt what I am writing let me pass on one more item, even the Canadians I worked with in one of their plants knew about it and are comfortable. I suspect the News Media will find out sometime around Election Time.
In conclusion, the chips in the Electric cars will remain dormant and the so called Smart Grid where out circuit breakers are replaced with relay types that can turn off our AC, and other power hungry loads, will remain dormant as well.
Lets hope the grid gets fixed and the power sources get running before any Orwellian crap takes place. It is all a big PR game in the interim.

jdorris · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 4:37 pm

Can you say post hijack? :roll:

OldSkull · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:45 pm

jdorris wrote:

Can you say post hijack? :roll:

The men already give a amazing answer to dieselenthusiast question, Gordie ask some precision for the second part of Warp answer, he feel the wave and surf it! :oops:

Everybody know Warp feeling for energy and the PR running the show...It's not new and I agree with the guy 100%.

Yes he Hijack this thread but with style and Knowledge! Bad bad Wharpy shame on you! :ROTFL:

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:48 pm

geordi wrote:

The hard part is getting to the very bottom of the tanks. I hate the idea of leaving a certain amount of fuel in the bottom of the tank..

X2

geordi wrote:

As for large storage, you might be better off looking into a 250 gallon "Tote" made from translucent poly (High Density Polyethylene or HDPE) that won't be attacked by the bio, yet will allow you to see the content level. Those totes can be moved by a pallet jack, come in a mesh cage that adds structural strength to the plastic, and they usually have a 2-inch drain on the bottom or you can pump from the top with a dip tube.

Do you have a link that may feature the storage container described above? I can't seem to find a HDPE bulk storage container that has a drain at the bottom.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:55 pm

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... vi-content

Or google:

http://www.google.com/images?q=250+gall ... 40&bih=657

Here's the thing: They are pretty much ALL going to be made of HDPE, that is the most chemical-resistant of the plastics. IIRC, its like recycle #6 on the chart. HDPP (High Density Poly Propylene) is NOT what you want for a biodiesel container or the LOW density versions of either - Those would be too weak and MIGHT start leaking if chemically attacked. Don't take that risk in a large container. PETE Poly Ethylene Tetra Ethylene is recycle number #1 (that I DO know)

The recycle numbers can be looked up, I'm only really certain about the first and last ones: #1 is PETE, which is made into like 2 liter soda bottles and such - It can work for a "Dr Pepper test batch" maybe twice, then the bottle will develop leaks. If you look at the recycle symbols on plastic stuff, they *should* also have a couple letters in addition to the numbers. That is how you confirm what it is.

PETE - Poly Ethylene Tetra Ethylene - Low density, chemical attack susceptible. Don't use for long term contact with methanol. Stable with B100 for multiple years. (I have my shelved test bottles in 20 ounce soda bottles for 7 years plus now)
PP - Poly Propylene - might be prefixed and be either LDPP or HDPP for low or high density. If none, figure low density. Slightly better chemical resistance than PETE, but will be broken down by methanol / Sodium Hydroxide mixtures in raw biodiesel. Should also be stable for long-term storage as it is better than PETE.
PE - Poly Ethylene, same thing (HD / LD) with the prefixes. HDPE is the best for chemical resistance, almost nothing attacks this. Used as the primary type of plastic storage tote for this reason.

Anything with recycle #7... Stay away from. This is the "unknown" category, and could be blends of who-knows-what.

You'd have to check on a portable gas can to be certain, but I'm reasonably sure that the 5-gallon Blitz-type jugs are all HDPE as well. So then you know they are good for long-term storage of dino-based diesel too.

BEFORE BUYING------ Visit your local water treatment plant, and inquire with them about if they get their chemicals via tote, and can you request one of the empties. My local plant has a friend working at it, and he offered me one. Said they do recycle them, but basically after they are empty, they are trashed. Ditto for getting 55-gallon poly drums, I get them free from local car washes. You just need to catch the wash before their normal pickup guy rolls through. Thats where I got the 15 gallon kegs too. Clean them out by water dilution - Fill them up and let the clean incoming water push the diluted "dirty" out into your existing city sewer connection. The water will be treated like any other, and not harm your treatment plant since it is their chemical anyway, just heavily diluted. The car wash chemicals are all designed to be water-soluble and bio-degradable soap anyway.

jdorris · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:17 pm

How long will the fuel sit? The bio is more likely to become contaminated with water through condensation. Not nearly as likely with b20 as b100 but still a concern. It just shouldn't sit forever like you could reg diesel. With a translucent container there is more risk of algae growth as well, if your garage has windows that allow sunlight. I would definitely drain the tank every so often to use up all old fuel.
I like the 250/275 gallon tote idea. I know guys who have used these for oil storage, bio storage, diesel storage etc. Top fill lid and one or two base drains. They do get brittle after years in the sun, but in the garage they should be fine. I see them all the time on craigslist for 50-100 bucks. The problem with the big metal farm tanks is they are usually old and full of rust. If you could get a nice one and it fit in the garage, it could work well.
I like the 15 gal plastic barrels with the handles on top for transport. They fit on a dolly easily and can be carried without permanent damage. They still have a standard barrel bung. Around here you can get them for a few bucks. The guy I have bought them from said they had Dr Pepper syrup in them.
For pumping I like electric ones like you find in ag stores for diesel tanks in the back of pickups. There are lots of choices on line. Might be nice to have two, one for transferring fuel from the small barrels to the large container, and one for pumping from the large container into the vehicle. Moving pumps from one valve to another and different containers can get messy.

:2cents:

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:43 pm

Sheds and Car Ports are cheap and better than taking up space in the garage :2cents:

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:22 pm

geordi wrote:

Ditto for getting 55-gallon poly drums.

That’s what I’m leaning towards. I like the idea of having several 55, 30, and 15 gallon drums. I can keep the 55’s on dollies/carts for easy mobility.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 10:56 pm

jdorris wrote:

How long will the fuel sit?

Mmmmmm, I’m not sure. I’m wanting to keep approximately 300 gallons of fuel on hand at all times. Once I build my home and shop, that number will increase to 1,000 gallons. One reason why I like the 55 gallon drums is because I can rotate out my fuel. But to answer your question, I plan on keeping fuel up to 1 - 1.5 years.

jdorris wrote:

The bio is more likely to become contaminated with water through condensation. Not nearly as likely with b20 as b100 but still a concern. It just shouldn't sit forever like you could reg diesel. With a translucent container there is more risk of algae growth as well, if your garage has windows that allow sunlight. I would definitely drain the tank every so often to use up all old fuel. :

For now, the B20 will be stored in a dark shop. From what I read, if B20 is properly treated and properly stored, it should last a minimum of 2 years with no problems. But you're right, a lot of things need to be put in place and conditions right to make that happen. I live at 7,000 feet, so the inside shop temperatures will never get above 70 degrees.

jdorris wrote:

I like the 15 gal plastic barrels with the handles on top for transport. They fit on a dolly easily and can be carried without permanent damage. They still have a standard barrel bung.

I like those too.

jdorris wrote:

For pumping I like electric ones like you find in ag stores for diesel tanks in the back of pickups. There are lots of choices on line. Might be nice to have two, one for transferring fuel from the small barrels to the large container, and one for pumping from the large container into the vehicle. Moving pumps from one valve to another and different containers can get messy.

Yeah, I have a few pumps in mind. I just want to make sure that I get a pump that can hold up to the Bio. I heard this is a good pump.
http://www.utahbiodieselsupply.com/methanolpump.php

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:09 pm

Better pump:

http://www.petroparts.com/Merchant2/mer ... =PTSgasboy

This is an all-metal design, they use replaceable brass "teeth" in a central hub that swing out of the hub simply by the centrifugal force. Very few moving parts other than the teeth against the body of the impeller section, and the motor holding the hub. They run GREAT for bio, and stupid fast if your fuel hoses are large enough.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:15 pm

geordi wrote:

Better pump:

http://www.petroparts.com/Merchant2/mer ... =PTSgasboy

This is an all-metal design, they use replaceable brass "teeth" in a central hub that swing out of the hub simply by the centrifugal force. Very few moving parts other than the teeth against the body of the impeller section, and the motor holding the hub. They run GREAT for bio, and stupid fast if your fuel hoses are large enough.

Are you talking about their hand pumps or their other pumps? Or maybe both?

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:30 pm

warp2diesel wrote:

New Mexico is not Illinois, but if you put a pump on your nozzle that has a meter, you can keep track of the gallons just in case the Tax Man/State becomes a jerk like Illinois has.

I'm thankful I live in New Mexico............. :lol:

I'm not making my own bio. I found a good source of biodiesel in Albuquerque called Southwest Biofuels, LLC. He has the largest biodiesel processing plant in New Mexico. He will sell me any amount of bio that I need, including B100.

warp2diesel wrote:

Also a pump will fill you rig faster than gravity, especially if you add a good filter, in the past I used both, gravity works but is slow unless you put your tank up high you may fall asleep filling up.

Yeah, I thought about that. A pump is the way to go.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:45 pm

I linked to the power pump page, didn't I? It opened to power pumps on mine, but maybe that is b/c I had looked at that site before.

Yes, I'm suggesting power. The hand pumps are ok, but you will either get VERY tired of doing that, or have Popeye's arms after transferring 300 gallons with one of those. They don't move that much fluid with each turn, sadly.

dieselenthusiast · **Posted:** Sun Jan 30, 2011 11:56 pm

geordi wrote:

I linked to the power pump page, didn't I? It opened to power pumps on mine, but maybe that is b/c I had looked at that site before.

Yes, I'm suggesting power. The hand pumps are ok, but you will either get VERY tired of doing that, or have Popeye's arms after transferring 300 gallons with one of those. They don't move that much fluid with each turn, sadly.

When I opened the page, it featured both pumps.

I did find a few hand pumps that flow approximately 10 gallons a minute. Although, I do like the idea of an electric/air pump as well. Since my goal is to have the ability to be off the grid, I’ll probably buy both. :mrgreen:

jmoomaw · **Posted:** Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:54 am

We have a recycling business here in Rochester. He always have a dozen or so of these containers waiting to go out. check there before buying. The bio forums can confirm which substances the containers held prior to bio use to avoid.

I was thinking for just buying 500 gallons once diesel goes down again. These winter prices and fluctuation are absurd. I use about 20 gallons a week (thank goodness the CRDs will go several 100,000 miles!).

What are different ways to store large quantities of diesel?

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