ouch! oil in the intake

naturist · **Posted:** Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:03 pm

I've a tale of woe and intrigue and need any help anyone can offer as far as insights into what is happening here.

My '05 CRD has 10,000 miles on it, changed the oil once (by the dealer) with the 0w40 Mobil 1 at 6,000 miles. I've been running biodiesel over 5%, too.

Mine had the EGR die at 4,000 miles, replaced under warranty with the same (early) design EGR, which also failed and was replaced with the new design. A couple days ago, I suddently suffered massive power loss. As soon as the throttle was depressed more than the barest minimum, it'd go into limp mode, and a mighty limp mode it was, barely enough power to move.

The dealer found codes P0401, P1140, and P0093, which he explained were EGR (almost constant since the first EGR replacement), a throttle sensor in the throttle body (which I'm not sure what that's about) and "fuel flow error - massive leak." Because I've been using over 5% biodiesel I may be about to lose warranty on the engine, BUT that's not what I need help on.

The sensors in the throttle body evidently cannot tolerate ANY liquid contamination. And because there IS liquid contamination, DC is refusing to warranty that item. The liquid in question appears to be coming from the CCV, no doubt oil, but it also smells like biodiesel, no surprise there. What is a surprise is that the stuff has spread clear from the turbo through the intercooler and into the throttle body, which is where it has caused my problem.

We're having to foot the bill at this point for flushing out the intake system (not covered under warranty) and for the throttle body (a $650 part!!!). Double ouch.

Any insights/advice/help anyone can offer would be greatly appreciated.

greiswig · **Posted:** Tue Mar 21, 2006 7:27 pm

The liquid in the TB smells like biodiesel? Who said that? Besides the fact that biodiesel smells many different ways according to feed stock, etc., the likelihood that anyone could detect it at around 5% seems low. Particularly when that is still further diluted by engine oil.

I wouldn't knuckle under to that without a big fight if I were you: If they try to attribute the issue to biodiesel, insist that you were using a 5% blend, which DC supposedly shipped the vehicles with to begin with. Look elsewhere on this list for an act whose name I can't recall that basically says the dealer can't void your warranty unless he can prove that, in this case, biodiesel directly caused this issue. Get a sample of the TB liquid, and have them analyze their own sample of it to determine what percentage is engine oil, what is diesel, and what is biodiesel. I would suspect that it is 98% engine oil, 1% diesel, .85% water, and .15% biodiesel.

tired_old_dave · **Joined:** Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:45 pm **Posts:** 79

With 42 posts you are aware of the problems. Try another dealer if all your parts are still there. Faulty ccv, 0w40, overfilling the crankcase to the full level at the wrong time. Do you mean the anti-shudder valve in the intake was covered in goo? How did they say they were going to flush your cac? There is a valve, I believe which increases egr gasses and someone has had that replaced. Stay cool and don't give up your bucks yet. Bio is in Ft worth, but I usually get tx crap and have always used additives.

JJsTJ · **Posted:** Tue Mar 21, 2006 8:25 pm

MAGNUSON-MOSS WARRANTY ACT

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

If you are able, take the hose from the turbo loose and take pictures of the oil in it, and inside the inlet to the intercooler. Take the hose off of the intake manifold and take pictures of the oil in that hose, as well as the outlet of the intercooler. Biodiesel has nothing to do with the fact that excessive oil blow-by is entering your intake manifold and ruining the sensors.

The reason for this problem is the factory standard oil-air separator (ccv) is doing an incomplete job of separating the crankcase oil vapor from the air, which is then piped directly into the intake tube on the inlet side of the turbo, pumped under pressure by the turbo into the intercooler and your intake manifold, and ruining the sensor(s) in the process. Unless an adequate CCV system is added, even after your $750 repair, the same failure will re-occur at some point.

Then, have an attorney write them a letter, detailing that the ccv on the Liberty CRD is inadequately separating the oil vapor from the crankcase and is the cause of the failed sensor, clogged intercooler and intake manifold.

See if that changes their response. Make sure an attorney writes the letter.

naturist · **Posted:** Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:12 am

greiswig wrote:

The liquid in the TB smells like biodiesel? Who said that? Besides the fact that biodiesel smells many different ways according to feed stock, etc., the likelihood that anyone could detect it at around 5% seems low. Particularly when that is still further diluted by engine oil.

I wouldn't knuckle under to that without a big fight if I were you: If they try to attribute the issue to biodiesel, insist that you were using a 5% blend, which DC supposedly shipped the vehicles with to begin with. Look elsewhere on this list for an act whose name I can't recall that basically says the dealer can't void your warranty unless he can prove that, in this case, biodiesel directly caused this issue. Get a sample of the TB liquid, and have them analyze their own sample of it to determine what percentage is engine oil, what is diesel, and what is biodiesel. I would suspect that it is 98% engine oil, 1% diesel, .85% water, and .15% biodiesel.

The liquid in the intake does indeed smell like biodiesel. But that shouldn't surprise anyone, as biodiesel's distinct smell flavors the exhaust, too, even at low concentrations. I've a Jetta TDI as well, and when I first started experimenting with biodiesel a year ago, others as well as I could smell the difference in the exhaust at concentrations well below 20%. I sniffed the residue myself, and it does indeed smell like biodiesel. But only very slightly, so even so your estimate of its composition probably isn't far off.

One thing I think I'd do, all you folks who have CRDs, and whether you run bio or not, is check your intake system. It's a pretty simple matter to pull the hose off between the turbo and the intercooler, just behind the grill on the passenger side. If there is an oily film there, you are on your way to having the same problem I have. And I'm told that DC insists that they will not cover vehicles with ANY liquid in there AND that any liquid will cause this particular failure. If you pull the hose on the other end of the intercooler, and IT's got liquid in it, make sure you have about $750 in your savings account: you are going to need it. Soon.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:17 am

That's what VW tried to get away with before the crap hit the fan over their poor design. You might do a google about that or got to TDI Club While there look up Old Navy CCV filter, I am working with some fine folks in CA to get one on the market for the CRD in a couple of months.

spoonplugger1 · **Posted:** Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:48 am

I'm willing to bet DC can't find one vehicle with your mileage that doesn't have liquid there. Until they can, it makes them liable, not you. They have to prove that you have a special non-existing situation brought on by your actions not to warranty your rig.

greiswig · **Posted:** Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:51 am

spoonplugger1 wrote:

I'm willing to bet DC can't find one vehicle with your mileage that doesn't have liquid there. Until they can, it makes them liable, not you. They have to prove that you have a special non-existing situation brought on by your actions not to warranty your rig.

Lots of good points made in previous posts. And this is an interesting one: what percentage of vehicles would have to NOT have oil in the intake for it to not be a DC problem, legally?

As for the smell of biodiesel in the liquid, IIRC the EGR will circulate in before that point, so that smell could well come simply from the burned fuel in the exhaust. Their implication seems to be that BD has somehow crept into the intake. Seems to me there are only two ways of doing that: through the engine oil (which is there but shouldn't be) in which case you've got serious compression problems or some other way for fuel to get in the oil, or through the air via the exhaust.

Good luck with this. Lots of good ideas as to how to fight this, and I hope you succeed.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

spoonplugger1 wrote:

I'm willing to bet DC can't find one vehicle with your mileage that doesn't have liquid there. Until they can, it makes them liable, not you. They have to prove that you have a special non-existing situation brought on by your actions not to warranty your rig.

Sure they can :-)

Those who have installed a Provent or homebrew ccv inline with the factory ccv early on don't have that liquid - but that only proves that DCX is liable for repair. Their factory ccv isn't doing the job. I've seen some posts from some aussies with CRD's who have had their intercoolers clog so badly with engine oil blow-by that their hoses blew off the intercooler around 30,000 km - literally.

naturist · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:54 pm

Thanks for all the good wishes. I appreciate that.

I had no choice but to tell them of my biodiesel use. I'm an outspoken community activist for biodiesel. I've been in the newspaper, as well as at least three (who can remember . . .) "earth day" fairs and energy expos. Besides, I'm a basicly honest guy. Finally, there is no mistaking the smell of the exhaust.

Anyway, The Plot has thickened . . . a lot.

Late in the afternoon when they gave me the estimate over the phone, and I didn't yell and carry on, I got a thank you for being a reasonable and patient guy, and a promise they'd work with me and do their best, but they did allow as how they were in territory they knew nothing about, here, vis-a-vis biodiesel. It also turned out that they knew nothing about diesels in general, as their mechanic was certain that the sensors were in the throttle-body, and had to work when the throttle plate closed off the airflow, and the fuel injectors in the manifold . . . .

It would seem that he did pay attention in mechanic's school when they mentioned that you had to be very careful with the high-pressure fuel lines, 'cause they were capable of injecting fatal amounts of fuel into your blood stream. He just missed everything else.

So anyway, the very next morning I took in 8 quarts of Mobil 1 Truck and SUV oil, 5w-40 with instructions to change the oil, too, while they were at it, as based upon reports here, the 0w-40 stuff seemed more likely to blow over. The service manager and I had a nice chat, they were in the process of cleaning out all the induction system, and he assured me they'd clean out the intercooler, too. He then told me he also appreciated my patience and calmness under fire, and reasonableness.

We had a laugh, and I said, yeah, but it was a good thing they hadn't had to put up with my wife, who upon hearing the estimate, had hit the roof, even raving about the lemon law and how much trouble we'd been having with this thing. But I'd calmed her down, not to worry. She is, after all, "excitable."

Back home an hour or so later I got a call from the service manager's boss (the same guy who thanked me the evening before) to the effect that company policy was that any customer who spoke the words "lemon law" in the presence of any employee, regardless of context, intent, meaning, etc. was to be immediately backed away from, all work on the vehicle stopped and the thing put back together whatever shape it was in, and set out in the street. He went on to say that they expected to be paid for the work they had already completed, diagnostics, etc. before they would release the car, and by the way, company policy also was that said payment had to be cash, no checks or credit cards, thank you very much.

Isn't that a fine way to win friends and influence enemies? I'm not a yeller or screamer anyway, but I did take the time to GENTLY point out to the guy that such a policy was all but guaranteed to produce the lawsuits they said they wanted to avoid.

Anyway, with the NEXT nearest Jeep dealers an hour and more away, and a vehicle that is unsafe to drive that far, we've been reduced to filing suit under the state lemon law. Our attorney seemed to think that the fuel issue would not be a particular problem. I guess we'll see.

Anyway, in the meantime, I'm looking for certified Jeep diesel mechanics with some experience with biodiesel and preferrably in Virginia? Any of you guys know someone like that?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

Naturist,

A couple of points to consider:

Biodiesel isn't the issue and you don't need to hide your use of it at all. Engine oil blow-by is the cause of this problem, and once you find a certified diesel mechanic, it won't be hard to prove it. If you don't let them clean up all the evidence first. If your attorney is experienced in automobile cases, he will have a list of subject matter experts, who can testify in court as engine or automobile experts as to the root cause of the excessive amount of oil in the intake and intercooler. He/she should be able to recommend a legally acceptable expert - some court systems have such personnel on file. It would not hurt to ask your attorney.

Btw, there is a sensor in the intake, its a combination air intake temperature/intake air pressure sensor and its located on the driver side of the engine close to the firewall. You'll see a wire connector hooked to it. If that sensor is bad and oil ruined it, then the ineffective factory ccv is at fault. If they try to blame biodiesel on the failure, ask them if the sensor will fail on biodiesl, but not liquid petroleum diesel. Ask them to put that in writing and give it to your lawyer.

Cash - no reputable dealer would insist on cash and you should not use it. They are likely concerned that if you win your case, a judgement will be issued against them and your credit card company will refund you your money. This is a sign of less than honest dealings. Again, ask your attorney if the dealer has a right to refuse a valid credit card payment. If they don't legally, insist on payment by that method and document if they refuse.

If your attorney can find another CRD owner in your area who has installed a supplementary ccv and is willing to let them videotape the difference in oil blow-by with one and without it, it would help. Once again, asking your attorney to help in this area couldn't hurt. If they aren't interested, I'd look for another attorney.

This problem isn't hard to fix, but you shouldn't be forced to if you don't wish to. DCX has a responsibility to honor their warranty.

spoonplugger1 · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:28 pm

In some state if a business refuses a via payment medium from a customer, ie. they're good for it, the money's in the bank, then the customer is no longer held liable for said payment, because it was offered and refused.

BlackLibertyCRD · **Posted:** Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:32 pm

When I filed for lemon law on my 2005 Magnum RT, the dealer couldn't care less. That will be between you and DC. They may check with the dealer about the problem but your lawyer has to prove your case. That's not hard to do with the few EGR valves you had installed and now this. Most lemon law lawyers already have thier experts witness that will write the report for you. Here in Delaware when proven a lemon, DC have to pay all lawyer fees, replace vehicle of you choice of another DC vehicle, tranfer extended warrenty, and refund the differance (in my case) if the replacement vehicle cost less. They go MSRP to MSRP only. In the mean time you can get your vehicle fixed at another dealer. If they charge you, save the reciepts for a refund.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:05 pm

I have owned and serviced diesels for 20 years and own an '05 CRD with 10,000 miles and the same issue but yet to have sensor failure (only a matter of time). I was into the dealer for an unrealted warranty issue @ 6,000 miles and mentioned the oil contamination in the air induction system and heavy oil consumption. Was unable to talk to the diesel tech because he was in Detroit at CRD school. They told me this was "normal" in the CRD. We had a lengthy discussion concerning the difference between "normal" and "acceptable." I could tell by the deer in the headlights look they didnt have a clue as to a fix.

I found the Service Manager, explained the problem and asked him directly what effect adding a Provent CCV filter would have on warranty coverage. He told me it would not void the warranty as long as it had a pressure vent/release and I didn't disconnect, block, or by-pass any emmisions device. He went on to say it would be a good idea to install one if I intend to keep this vehicle for a long time. He became very inquizitive about the Provent and asked to see mine once it is installed (ie.. I'm not the first to complain). I also asked if Jeep would clean the oil out of my intake and intercooler, told me no, this is "normal." This is a large, multi-line dealer servicing Dodge, Jeep, and Ford diesel products. They are not inexperienced with diesels, I think Jeep has their hands tied. The bottom line is DC knows this is a problem and is unwilling or unable to fix it.

Just before seeing the dealer (5,700 miles) I changed out the factory oil because I didn't like the goopy/gritty feel (excessive soot). Noticed the oil contamination in the induction hoses during this first service. Went with 5W-40 syn Rotella, oil consumption problem went away. Installed a Provent CCV filter at 6,200 miles in addition to removing and cleaning my induction & CCV hoses and air box (either takes the oil off without disolving the hoses). I have peroidically checked the hoses, have been clean. I looked inside my induction hoses today (4,000 miles later) and they are again coated with black oil. Also staring to get oil/goo in my recovery bottle from the drain on the Provent for the first time.

In my case, the oil contamination is not from the CCV (my Provent hoses are clear vynal). The Provent removes this variable. I think I'm loosing my turbo oil seals. Looks like it's time to see the dealer again. My feeling is this is going to get ugly for me too.

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

I checked my turbo hoses this weekend. It's been 15,000 miles since I installed the Provent, having some 2500 miles on the CRD before discovering oil blow-by in the hoses.

They're still clean, just some dry oil residue and some black tiger stripes on the intake side hose. I will clean the hoses completely this spring, but the Provent has stopped the oil blow-by issue. The oil blow-by still comes out of the factory ccv, as evidenced by the oil fumes I see when I take the Provent cap off to check it, but it's not getting into the CAC hoses on either side.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:10 pm

I was mulling over something the other day. The way the Provent filter element is constructed, it would be easy to put some loosely packed fine steel wool down inside it, even more surface area to condense out oil on, perhaps make that filter element last even longer?

Any thoughts on whether I should monkey around with this, or just leave well enough alone?

Ranger1 · **Joined:** Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:40 pm **Posts:** 1137

If you're thinking of putting steel-wool in the lower section, it sounds like a good idea. Couldn't hurt as long as it's not too dense. Might help trap even more oil particles and then channel them down into the lower drain tube.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:54 pm

Im going to try a clean air filter element and cleaning the hoses again before letting the dealer touch this. I have a gut hunch it's sucking so hard through a old, partially blocked filter that it is pulling oil through the turbo seals. This is also the first time I have anything other than dirty water in my Provent collection bottle. Now seeing gobs of goo coming out of the dirty CCV line into the Provent as if it's pulling for air from anywhere it can. I have seen this before on OTR buses where full turbo boost starves the air compressor for fresh air so bad that it sucks oil past the rings into the air system. Makes a big mess and trashes an air dryer core in no time.

naturist · **Posted:** Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:00 am

retmil46 and ranger1, I'd be hesitant to put steel wool in a ProVent because there are TWO reasons oil droplets settle out: besides the surface to condense on, there is the issue of slow moving air vs fast moving air.

The dynamics of the process depend upon droplet size. It turns out that larger droplets will strike and stick to surfaces, but there is a size barrier here. The smallest droplets don't have enough inertia, so when an air stream veers away from a surface, the smallest droplets veer with it. Still air is necessary to allow them to collide with one another on their own, become larger, and settle out. You see the same effect in running water. Moving water will remain turbid for a LONG time, but allowed to enter a pond or other slow moving area, and the water clarifies greatly.

The addition of steel wool would have an inhibiting effect on the movement of air, just like insulation will in the walls of your house. What will likely happen is that instead of a large volume of really still air, you will block the air flow to deeper regions of the tank, and the small region where the air does flow will wind up with a much higher air velocity, thus inhibiting the settling of the smallest droplets of oil.

ouch! oil in the intake

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