Tow Report: 24' Motorboat--didn't work out.

GaryC · **Joined:** Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:59 pm **Posts:** 21

jinstall wrote:

I can't beleive GaryC compared a KJ to a 3/4 ton truck....

Talk about missing the point! I compared them because that's what the OP should be using to safely tow a boat that size. You might get away with one of the newer half tons but a jeep liberty is FAR overloaded with that boat behind it. I don't care how you balance it, it's still TOO HEAVY!!!

I give up, you win!! You guys can pull anything with these mighty little SUV's, just please stay on the west coast when you do it. At least you're 1800 miles away from me so I don't have to drive near you.

dkenny · **Posted:** Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:45 pm

sorry but there are no standards in tow ratings.

I've towing more than 10k with a 4runner rated to tow 3,500lbs..

good idea..no, but possible. and it was a 5 speed manual..

so that was about 3x its rating..

that trailer could easily be towed with a real 1/2 pickup..check the tow ratings.

-dkenny

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:21 pm

GaryC wrote:

jinstall wrote:

I can't beleive GaryC compared a KJ to a 3/4 ton truck....

Talk about missing the point! I compared them because that's what the OP should be using to safely tow a boat that size. You might get away with one of the newer half tons but a jeep liberty is FAR overloaded with that boat behind it. I don't care how you balance it, it's still TOO HEAVY!!!

I give up, you win!! You guys can pull anything with these mighty little SUV's, just please stay on the west coast when you do it. At least you're 1800 miles away from me so I don't have to drive near you.

Agreed.

Perhaps his towing expertise is a good part of the reason Geordi the Engineslayer has managed to destroy three different engines in his vehicle.

jinstall · **Posted:** Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:43 pm

GaryC wrote:

jinstall wrote:

I can't beleive GaryC compared a KJ to a 3/4 ton truck....

Talk about missing the point! I compared them because that's what the OP should be using to safely tow a boat that size. You might get away with one of the newer half tons but a jeep liberty is FAR overloaded with that boat behind it. I don't care how you balance it, it's still TOO HEAVY!!!

I give up, you win!! You guys can pull anything with these mighty little SUV's, just please stay on the west coast when you do it. At least you're 1800 miles away from me so I don't have to drive near you.

Then PLEASE explain it to me then. Oh and BTW I am on the east coast. I have towed above the 5000lbs many times with my KJ. I have even towed 300lbs with my KJ. Neither and issue. Most of my towing was in Germany from Bingen Germany to Bitburg Germany with the racecar and a fellow racer's car from Bitburg to Kaiserslautern Germany. Neither the grades or the load were an issue.

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:59 pm

retmil46 wrote:

Agreed.

Perhaps his towing expertise is a good part of the reason Geordi the Engineslayer has managed to destroy three different engines in his vehicle.

Cute attempt at an attack, but you missed a key point: I have only had one engine failure, as a DIRECT result of the stock turbo failing and blowing all the oil out in about 30 seconds.
A lack of knowledge about this critical failure point exacerbated the problem, or I would have shut the engine down the instant there was a power loss. I had thought it was just a popped boost hose.

This was with 60k miles on the engine and turbo, and I have now had a SECOND stock turbo fall apart with approximately 110k miles on it (it came with the replacement motor) and it failed in such a way as to start leaking oil again. I caught that turbo failure before it caused any engine damage.

"But your heavy towing must be damaging these turbos" you are now thinking... And you would be wrong. There have been several members here that have made zero mention of towing anything, that have had turbo failures. Additionally, after the first turbo failure, I have been meticulous about monitoring the EGT and boost pressure, and all are well within safe limits when I am towing. I usually don't shut the engine off when towing, to ensure that oil is constantly flowing to keep things cooled.

This has not prevented the turbo failure. I am of the opinion that the stock turbo that Chrysler selected is too close to its operational limits even in normal driving, and should not have been chosen in the first place. But go ahead and blame my towing all you want. I drive far in excess of 35,000 miles per year, and my mileage towing of ANY amount of weight is less than 1000 miles per year. All of this is on the East Coast... So you are in my neighborhood.

In other news, the CRD and its stock aluminum wheels operate JUST FINE with load range E or load range D light truck tires. There are PLENTY of members here running those shoes from a number of different manufacturers, myself included. I'm currently on my second set, and they are pumped up to 60PSI (the sidewall max) and are wearing perfectly even across the tread, with the exception of some cupping that is most likely caused by bad shocks.

Thanks for playing though!

Dave01 · **Posted:** Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:57 am

Hey jinstall, thanks for your service!!!

I'm reading this with interest. I've towed mostly boats with my CRD, 2 in particular are close to 4,000 lbs. each with trailer. One is on a custom fit trailer with decent surge brakes. The other is on an ill-fitting trailer with fair brakes. The difference is dramatic, and it's not just the braking. The properly fitting, properly set up trailer tows like it's almost not there, no shimmy or weaving or trailer steer in a sharp curve. The other trailer take a lot of attention and planning to keep it safe. Both have about the same tongue weight, though one is a single and one a dual.

Now, I just sold my '97 Suburban diesel 3/4 ton. I towed both of these boats with it, so the comparison is interesting. I'm NOT comparing the Liberty to a Suburban, I'm comparing the towing feel. Not surprisingly, the Suburban is a great tow rig, the 6.5 diesel very strong though not at all fast. That rig is only rated for 7,500 lbs. by the way, one of the great curiosities of tow ratings. The CRD tows the "good" trailer better than the Suburban did. It's faster to 50 mph, will tow at 60-65 in high gear without hunting, handles hills quite well. If you give me a choice of the 2 vehicles to tow that load with, I'll pick the CRD. The "bad" trailer's handling problems were minimized with the 7,000 plus lb. Suburban, it just can't toss it around like it does the 4,500 lb. Liberty.

The difference comes in with increased weight. I towed a 7,000-8,000 lb. trailer with the Suburban. It felt very similar to the 4,000 lb. trailer, handled fine, beyond the slowdown on hills it really wasn't breathing hard. I would not attempt to tow that with the CRD, despite the success some members here have had towing big loads. As someone above said, all those other unseen, unheard components are not up to the task, suspension, brakes, etc.

So, I'm in the camp of towing that big boat with a 3/4 ton truck, not a CRD. Just my opinion.

jinstall · **Posted:** Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:05 am

Thanks and I like your post, true comparison and is on par with my towing history with the CRD.

Ajamant · **Posted:** Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:43 pm

So I didn't find the answer to an important question: I've also heard that the euro CRD is rated to 7000lbs towing. I thinks its higher rating is due to the stronger tourque converter. Is this correct???? Even if this were the case the spring/shocks would have to be stiffer.

I tow a 16ft utility trailer with dirt bikes/quads with a brake controller with no problems. Actually I love getting crazy good milage (18-20) while my friends and brothers "real tow rigs" get 10-13.

As far as towing heavy, without a weight distributing hitch I wouldn't touch anything even close to max tow rating.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:01 pm

geordi wrote:

Cute attempt at an attack, but you missed a key point: I have only had one engine failure, as a DIRECT result of the stock turbo failing and blowing all the oil out in about 30 seconds.
A lack of knowledge about this critical failure point exacerbated the problem, or I would have shut the engine down the instant there was a power loss. I had thought it was just a popped boost hose.

This was with 60k miles on the engine and turbo, and I have now had a SECOND stock turbo fall apart with approximately 110k miles on it (it came with the replacement motor) and it failed in such a way as to start leaking oil again. I caught that turbo failure before it caused any engine damage.

"But your heavy towing must be damaging these turbos" you are now thinking... And you would be wrong. There have been several members here that have made zero mention of towing anything, that have had turbo failures. Additionally, after the first turbo failure, I have been meticulous about monitoring the EGT and boost pressure, and all are well within safe limits when I am towing. I usually don't shut the engine off when towing, to ensure that oil is constantly flowing to keep things cooled.

This has not prevented the turbo failure. I am of the opinion that the stock turbo that Chrysler selected is too close to its operational limits even in normal driving, and should not have been chosen in the first place. But go ahead and blame my towing all you want. I drive far in excess of 35,000 miles per year, and my mileage towing of ANY amount of weight is less than 1000 miles per year. All of this is on the East Coast... So you are in my neighborhood.

In other news, the CRD and its stock aluminum wheels operate JUST FINE with load range E or load range D light truck tires. There are PLENTY of members here running those shoes from a number of different manufacturers, myself included. I'm currently on my second set, and they are pumped up to 60PSI (the sidewall max) and are wearing perfectly even across the tread, with the exception of some cupping that is most likely caused by bad shocks.

Thanks for playing though!

Well, no more of an attack than you calling onthehunt a troll for no particular reason.

Come now, I've been on this forum since '05, and remember many of your earlier posts over the years. Blaming VM Motori and Chrysler for making a defective engine and vehicle seems to be a familiar refrain in them. Unless they've been deleted for some reason, they should pop up on a search of the forum, such that anyone who wants to bother can find and read them, and judge for themselves who's spouting bull here.

Seems I remember an issue with getting a replacement engine from DieselToyz here in San Antonio, and the mechanic that installed it not bothering to check the bolts on the flywheel, such that it lunched that engine or other components as well. And then your trying to lay blame for it on DieselToyz for supposedly doing an improper job of packaging and shipping the engine. I do remember Dieseltoyz posting a lengthy rebuttal to your accusations, including pictures, showing how the engine had been packaged to your specifications.

I only live 10 miles away from Dieseltoyz's shop here in San Antonio. Perhaps I should pop over there one afternoon and have a chat with Todd, and get it straight from the horse's mouth what his side of the story is.

Tires wearing perfectly with the exception of some cupping? That's like saying the operation was a success with the exception of the patient dying. Dude, get your alignment checked and some new shocks on that beast - the stock Chrysler factory shocks are crap and generally worn out by 30 to 40K miles, even a cheap set of Monroes is a vast improvement. Even the gassers know that.

As far as the original poster filling his tires with foam for a DIY run flat mod, I only have two words - Darwin Award.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:50 pm

The problem that the mechanic caused had nothing to do with the flywheel, he caused it himself by over-torquing the tensioner on the front of the motor and that was what screwed the lifters.

I don't know why you choose to bring up Todd, but I guess you feel that a completely unrelated incident from 3 years ago means something here or that I am unreliable as a tech b/c of the direct actions of a person 900 miles from me that I have never met in person. Here is my reply to your unfounded nonsense.

The problems with Todd were that he was upset that I didn't want a shop 900 miles from me working on my vehicle, when he himself admitted that this was his first experience with a CRD motor. Not inspiring a lot of confidence in me. If you want to trust him, be my guest, I guess you have known him longer. He "reassembled" the engine and put the flywheel on wrong-side-out which was what involved that. I have LOTS of pictures myself of his "packing" job, and the fact that he put ALL the motor's weight onto the oil pan, with only a single 2x4 on two sides to "support" it... until he closed the lid. I did NOT tell him how to pack it, I asked him point-blank if he knew a safe way of cradling it or letting it rest on the BACK of the motor where I knew there wasn't anything fragile like the pan. He claimed he knew how to build a support that would be safe, my fault for trusting him. The engine ripped through the bottom pallet such that the shipping company had to put another pallet under it to even get it off the truck. That crate that he charged me for only concealed his horrid attempt at boxing that engine up and containing the front cover as it was being smashed by the engine ON TOP OF IT.

There is no love lost there, I pity anyone that brings a vehicle to his shop for work. I do not recall any direct reply here about his delivery, but I consider any business I had with him complete. I will not retread this ground again, and anything else you have to say on his behalf is simply hearsay.

Where I complain about Chrysler's design choices I feel it is justified, just as everyone else on here who does the exact same thing. The people who have had problems and failures of key components and ARE NOT the people who abuse their vehicles... What do you say about them? More than a couple people on here have had turbo failures, who don't tow or tow Euro-rated loads... That does not disprove my contention that some of the components are not up to the task b/c Chrysler chose to select cheaper / smaller components to save money.

Ball joint selection perhaps? Yea... Chrysler would NEVER select substandard components to save a nickel. (That was sarcasm, since it doesn't translate through the internet well)

I would hope that the original poster's comment about foam in the tires was a joke or sarcasm... But you never know. I am man enough to admit when I don't know something, and I did not know previously that a problem with the rear suspension could cause problems and bad wear on the FRONT... Now I do. I had already addressed the front suspension and nobody asked me if I had done anything about the rear shocks, even when pointing out the initial tire cupping. Perhaps there is a connection to the rear shocks needing replacement, perhaps not. Since they need to be done and I am still looking for a solution, that is why I asked, and why I will try fixing them next.

usa591 · **Posted:** Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:18 pm

retmil46 wrote:

geordi wrote:

As far as the original poster filling his tires with foam for a DIY run flat mod, I only have two words - Darwin Award.

Yes, for the record, that was a joke. I gave up when I couldn't get those styrofoam peanuts to fit through that thing that I occasionally blow air into when I hear the rim rubbing against the freeway again. Do you know how long it takes to inflate those Goodyears to 33 psi? Sheesh. I should have hired someone to do it.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's posts, by the way. I learned a lot--and that is no joke. :POPCORN:

By the way, the boat did make it down to Southern California on that trailer behind a F-350 properly set up for towing.

Cheers, mateys.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:29 pm

usa591 wrote:

retmil46 wrote:

geordi wrote:

As far as the original poster filling his tires with foam for a DIY run flat mod, I only have two words - Darwin Award.

Yes, for the record, that was a joke. I gave up when I couldn't get those styrofoam peanuts to fit through that thing that I occasionally blow air into when I hear the rim rubbing against the freeway again. Do you know how long it takes to inflate those Goodyears to 33 psi? Sheesh. I should have hired someone to do it.

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone's posts, by the way. I learned a lot--and that is no joke. :POPCORN:

By the way, the boat did make it down to Southern California on that trailer behind a F-350 properly set up for towing.

Cheers, mateys.

Glad to hear everything worked out safely. And considering it was a joke, apologies for the DA comment.

But seriously, those Goodyear Wranglers ARE very poor tires for this type of vehicle - as was said, paper thin sidewalls, and from my own personal experience, absolutely no wet traction whatsoever.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:41 pm

Geordi -

Rear upper suspension arm. Looks like a large boomerrang. Attaches to the rear diff with a ball joint at it's "point", and to the body at the ends of it's "arms" with a rubber bushing.

Supposed to control lateral (side to side) movement of the rear axle. Replaced the entire assembly on mine at 50K miles - bushings still fine, but ball joint worn to the point you could swivel it with one finger.

Complete arm with new bushings and balljoint can be found online for around $150.

jinstall · **Posted:** Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:04 pm

Ajamant wrote:

So I didn't find the answer to an important question: I've also heard that the euro CRD is rated to 7000lbs towing. I thinks its higher rating is due to the stronger tourque converter. Is this correct???? Even if this were the case the spring/shocks would have to be stiffer.

I tow a 16ft utility trailer with dirt bikes/quads with a brake controller with no problems. Actually I love getting crazy good milage (18-20) while my friends and brothers "real tow rigs" get 10-13.

As far as towing heavy, without a weight distributing hitch I wouldn't touch anything even close to max tow rating.

No it is due to lower towing speed limits, 62mph. I have the 7700lbs hitch on my KJ from Europe and towed in Europe with it.

Ajamant · **Posted:** Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:37 pm

What class is the 7700 pound hitch...... our yankee versions have class 3 at 5000lbs correct???

jinstall · **Posted:** Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:09 am

It is the Bosai hitch you get in Europe, same as the rest, 3500kg towing. it is longer and sits lower than a normal hitch and is a 51mm ball only.

By jinstall at 2010-04-17

usa591 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:44 am

Wow--3500kg = 7716lbs!

I was in Scotland last year and I remember being blown away by what people were towing with their little euro-style cars over there. Here in the US we would never think of towing an airstream/camper behind a passenger car, but over there--regular occurence.

I chalked it up to everything being powered by diesels.

In fact, my Scottish friend has a new Audi wagon and we got 60mpg during our road trip. 60!!! :shock:

That included highway driving (which actually includes stop signs and traffic circles), town driving & of course, some sporty stuff. 60mpg!!!! :shock:

Why doesn't any of that make it over to our side of the Atlantic? :ALONE:

Even the Mercedes and BMW BlueTec's only get nominally better fuel economy than their gasser counterparts--the Mercedes is, like, 25/20 vs 23/17. Which, as we all know, really mean they get something like 23/17 & 20/14 under real world driving conditions. Kind of embarrasing, to be honest. :oops:

retmil46 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:48 pm

usa591 wrote:

In fact, my Scottish friend has a new Audi wagon and we got 60mpg during our road trip. 60!!! :shock:

That included highway driving (which actually includes stop signs and traffic circles), town driving & of course, some sporty stuff. 60mpg!!!! :shock:

Why doesn't any of that make it over to our side of the Atlantic? :ALONE:

Three letters - E P A

usa591 · **Posted:** Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:43 pm

retmil46 wrote:

Three letters - E P A

...are the emissions standards really that lax over there? That surprises me. I thought Germany was the first country to ring the warning bell when acid rain started to kill off the Black Forest.

I know there are threads here on this subject, but does it all come down to the oxides of nitrogen thing?

...and if so, do Euro diesel engines not have the EGR device? I can't believe that they would equip their entire continental fleet of diesels with a turbo-killing device like that, I mean, they've been pretty successful with diesel engine development.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:46 pm

I know EPA is a convenient single party to point at with respect to the relative lack of smaller vehicle diesel engines but it's not that simple. For example while price varies from one European country to another diesel fuel is significantly cheaper than gasoline in Europe so that the payback time in fuel savings relative to the higher cost of a diesel engine is much shorter in Europe than in the US especially given the much higher European price for either fuel. Emissions regulations are different with European regulations being less concerned about particulate emissions than US regulations hence the common European designed engines cannot simply be shipped over here for use, yep that's the EPA part of the puzzle but in fairness EPA enforces the laws we have not the ones we might like to have and that's a political issue. American car buyers have for a variety of reasons, some irrational but grounded in unfortunate US diesel car manufacture history, never really embraced diesel vehicles. To be fair it wasn't until relatively recently that the routine installation of turbos on small diesels made those vehicle competative in performance with a gas vehicle. I know my Dad's old non-turbo Mercedes diesel was a great vehicle but for acceleration one had to run along behind it and beat it with a stick to get to highway speed.

Hate to say it but we are caught in a no market because there are no vehicles and no vehicles because there is no market chicken and egg loop. Maybe the next round of fleet mpg requirements, that pesky EPA again, will encourage more small diesel options.

Tow Report: 24' Motorboat--didn't work out.

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