Seized Engine

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:18 pm

If this was a timing belt screwup, I think ALL of the valves would be affected. This engine design is not very polite when improper timing happens. The designed-in failure mode is to break all the rocker arms however, and protect the valves themselves.

I'd be interested to know exactly how that happened, sounds like a factory defect, honestly. There isn't anything I can think of that would fork up just one valve and cause the shaft to snap. Jam a valve OPEN, maybe. I've had that happen on a gas engine, some carbon crap from bad fuel built up on a valve seat and caused it to stick slightly open, which caused a hotspot on the valve... Which burned and cracked the valve, making the opening wider, increasing the hotspot... Lather rinse repeat.

But that valve is now on my wall of fame. With the shaft intact. This... Seems fishy.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:14 pm

fatweasel wrote:

Latest update: broken valve fell into cylinder. Valve buried in piston and driven through cylinder wall (not sleeve but wall). Block is damaged beyond repair.

Any interest in selling the Jeep as is?

fatweasel · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:00 pm

Any one have a line on a used engine?

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:38 pm

fatweasel wrote:

Any one have a line on a used engine?

There are several for sale in the $4500 range around the country. IMO by the time you pay for the engine, shipping, and for someone to install it you are approaching what you could get another used CRD for.

$4500 + $500 ship + $2000 to install = $7000
(just guessing on the last two figures, I think I am about right on shipping but I'm not sure about the install price)

Let say you found someone to install the engine for $1000, which I think would be a pretty good price, so you got a used engine, spent nothing else in parts(timing belt, water pump, torque converter etc) on the low end you would be at $6000 to install.
(so roughly speaking you are looking at $6000-7000 for a new engine)

Here is a CRD thats been for sale for a few weeks that sounds like it needs very little attention for $7500:
http://tulsa.craigslist.org/cto/2524941318.html
(says 4wd will not engage, I suspect it is likely a shift cable problem, even if the transfer case were bad you can find NP242s all day long for $100-200).

But here is a really nice example of a CRD for sale:
http://baltimore.craigslist.org/cto/2535660722.html

$9500 and it comes with all sorts of goodies.

So between buying a used engine, shipping it, and getting it installed you might be at $6000-$7000. Well for $7500 you can get one that is running fine and just needs a little love, or for $9500 you can get a nice deal on one with some goodies.

So lets say you did sell your CRD for $2-3k, and bought that one for $7500, well at the end of the day if you sold yours for 2-3k you would be out a grand total of $4500-5500. If you bought that one for $9500 you would be out 6500-7500.

So you could fix yours, for $6000-7000 or buy another and sell yours as is for about 6500-7500 out of pocket. Kinda a toss up, but installing a used engine could run into other things real quick that nickle and dime you, and buying another unknown CRD could nickle and dime you real quick.

And for the record, if you look on www.car-part.com you can see the used engines currently for sale.

fatweasel · **Posted:** Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:09 pm

The story has changed...

I went to the dealership this morning, mechanic is not there, service manager takes me out to look at the engine.

We look at the cylinders and there does not appear to be catastrophic damage - certainly not the valve driven through the wall of the cylinder I was told over the phone. There is a valve embedded in the top of the piston.

Service manager calls the mechanic (at home). Mechanic explains there is a hair-line crack in the cylinder. When asked about replacing the sleeve he thinks it might be an option - would need to take apart the bottom of the engine to see the sleeve/block interface.

The head is another story - it got mangled pretty bad from the piston/valve smashing against it. Mechanic and service manager say that it cannot be saved. New head is $1600, but is not available from Mopar until late October.

So now I am faced with a head replacement, 1 new piston, a new cylinder sleeve and whatever may lurk below the cylinder (rod, crank shaft, bearings etc).

I was able to find several salvaged cylinder heads for $500 - $750.

fatweasel · **Posted:** Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:25 pm

Photos of the cylinder - with the valve stuck into the top of the piston.

Second photo is the cylinder head.

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:50 pm

All of the wet sleeve (and dry sleeve) engines I have worked on, can have the sleeve pulled without removing the crank. If the crank is not damaged and the rod is not bent (Machine shops have the tools to check), replace the piston, sleeve, and cylinder head and go for it. Do the timing belt at the same time so you don't have to have it done later.
Just to be on the extra safe side, have the tech check the area between the sleeves in the block and make sure there are no cracks. This is very unlikely, but best to be sure. Magnified visual check, dye check, or finger nail check will catch most cracks, magniflux will catch even more but it will make a big mess.
Since you have the head off, install the probe for the EGT gauge so you don't run the risk of another dropped valve. Over heated exhaust valves are candidates for having their heads fall off when pulling a load or climbing a lot of steep grades. I do my best to keep my EGT under 1250F and never let it spike over 1400F even for a full second. High reving under a load drives up the EGT in real world conditions. Not letting you engine EGT cool down is another cause of trashed turbos and engine valves. I know your part of Michigan does not have mountains, but a lot of your cohorts try to pass up commercial jets that fly over I-94 and other Interstates on a regular basis. Pulling into a rest area or off the expressway too fast and shutting down the engine will over heat a turbo or the valves that aren't closed when the engine shuts down. An EGT gauge will put this problem to rest for good if you let it drop to ~400F-~450F.
Let the dyno/EGT info often pontificated on this and other forums be a topic of discussion for engineers who have carpal tunnel syndrome only in their right index finger. Dynomometers are a great educational tool, but real world usage and field testing is more realistic in getting rid of the bugs. Far too often the engineers set up the field conditions to mimic their dyno tests just to make them selves feel good; then all kinds of crap happens when the end users get a hold of it.

FYI: Being a former IH Factory Rep and repair shop owner, I learned that 25% of the Dealers are very good and can be trusted, 75% are not so great and have been given the name Stealerships by this and other forums.
Good luck.

camo · **Posted:** Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:31 am

fatweasel wrote:

Latest update: broken valve fell into cylinder. Valve buried in piston and driven through cylinder wall (not sleeve but wall). Block is damaged beyond repair.

OUCHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

warp2diesel · **Posted:** Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:33 am

For anyone who wants to go beyond the unbolt and rebolt procedures.
A competent welding shop with a powder torch (http://www.google.com/search?q=powder+t ... =firefox-a) could repair the block and it could be remachined into the proper configuration (been there done that). Companies like Cummins who rebuild larger wet sleeve engines do this on a regular basis and warranty their work. If I had time to kill and a place to store the engine, I would take it on, but I don't. The point I want to make is that the economics and bottom line make the determination, don't let anyone tell you otherwise just because they can't or won't do it.
If you don't want to take on this task, parts of the engine can be salvaged such as the crank, cams( maybe), balancer, oil pump, ect.
Time to open up the spread sheet and crank out the numbers.

Ajamant · **Posted:** Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:21 am

Man that really sucks!!!! I live in ann arbor and wish I could tell you a good diesel mechanic. Other than the guys who wrench on our ambulances at work, I don't know any. I tried near and far when looking for someone to do the timing belt, and everyone backed away from the idea. The stealership here in A2 had never even done a timing belt, ever.

Any updates????

geordi · **Posted:** Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:03 am

I still have a complete head for sale, with all the valves at their assigned duty stations. Ready to bolt right in. 60k miles on it, NEVER overheated at all.

Amianthus · **Posted:** Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:35 am

Your situation is EXACTLY the same as what happened to me.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=46840&p=669015#p669015

Write me if you want any help with it. I've been down this road before. If you're handy, I can turn you on to my dealer who got me a Reman engine for less than $4k.

You have my sympathies. This situation sucks!

Oh, and by my estimation, it's not the overheating that did it. It's the fact that the head was PACKED FULL of sludge from the emissions crap (EGR and PCV vapors) :furious:

!

fatweasel · **Posted:** Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:44 am

This chapter is over.

Sold the CRD with the trashed head to a local guy who has the tools and technology to put it back in shape.

Purchased a "new" 2005 locally with 60,000 miles. Will plan to get the GDE ECO tune to help minimize the soot buildup in the intake.

It was pretty amazing to see how restricted all the intake components were from soot.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:54 pm

As some sort of cosmic joke, I sold my Jeep friday too.

jeepdan · **Posted:** Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:48 am

Sir Sam wrote:

As some sort of cosmic joke, I sold my Jeep friday too.

Which one?

nissanfrontier · **Joined:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:09 pm **Posts:** 145

Maybe we should start a poll of these seized motors. What brand of filter were you using and did you check oil level regularly 170k on diesel seems like low miles.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:54 pm

jeepdan wrote:

Sir Sam wrote:

As some sort of cosmic joke, I sold my Jeep friday too.

Which one?

The one that I had to sell to go buy his.

Amianthus · **Posted:** Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:46 pm

IMHO, it's not an oil issue at all. The valves get stuck because of soot and sludge buildup in the intake of the motor. The piston then comes up and slams against it breaking the valve off into the engine.

VM Motori couldn't give a crap about it (at least they've NEVER returned my emails). I think it's a fine motor for what we ask it to do. Problem is the afterthought emissions control equipment that's on the stupid thing. THAT is the root of all evil in this. IMHO.

yrkcrd · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:45 pm

Sir Sam wrote:

jeepdan wrote:

Sir Sam wrote:

As some sort of cosmic joke, I sold my Jeep friday too.

Which one?

The one that I had to sell to go buy his.

Sorry to hear that the engine was damaged.

Sam looking forward to a DIY on wet sleeve replacement juuuuust in case I ever need to do this in the future...

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:01 pm

yrkcrd wrote:

Sorry to hear that the engine was damaged.

Sam looking forward to a DIY on wet sleeve replacement juuuuust in case I ever need to do this in the future...

What?

Seized Engine

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