CRD Stalling, Difficultly Starting (sometimes); Air in Fuel?

drees617 · **Posted:** Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:54 pm

Hey guys. I’ve been reading this forum for a good 6 weeks now and figure it’s time to jump in and participate! I’ve already changed my fuel filter, cleaned my MAP, and got educated on the importance of the EHM and SEGR mods, thanks to the fine threads on this forum.

However, I’m experiencing a particularly frustrating issue with my ‘05 Liberty CRD. It intermittently shuts off or will not start. It seems to happen about once a week for the last few weeks. It will turn over fine; it just doesn’t start. It will also intermittently die on me while I’m decelerating or idling, usually at a stop light. One time it did this, I just shut off the vehicle and tried to start it again, and it leapt back to life, but usually it will not restart, and I have to wait 30 minutes to an hour before trying to start it again, and then it will start (strangers have helped me push it out of traffic!)
The very first time this happened, I was about 400 miles into a road trip when it would not start after a night in a hotel. I had it towed to a diesel mechanic, and he determined it was a valve on the vegetable oil system that went bad, starving the engine of fuel. He completely disconnected the WVO system and the problem went away, allowing me to drive back home. However, the problem still exists, and I’m wondering if the WVO system was incorrectly faulted for the problem.
I changed the fuel filter and cleaned the MAP last weekend, with fingers crossed that it was a plugged fuel filter, but to no avail. 4 days later (and 100 miles), it stalled on me waiting for a stop light.

After browsing the forums, this seems like air in fuel issue (AIF), but I don’t want to jump to that conclusion right away because when the vehicle does start, it runs perfectly (warm, cold, idling, hard acceleration, etc). I also hate to bring it somewhere and spend $100 an hour for labor when the problem is so intermittent.
Some things I’ve noticed since the issue began:

• The fuel primer will go soft after 10 minutes, and will not stay firm when the engine is running. I haven’t seen any evidence of fuel leakages. I thought I remember the primer always being firm… (no jokes please!)
• After changing the fuel filter and cleaning the MAP, I’ve notice this clicking (or pulsating) sound, when the engine is running. It sounds very similar to the clicking sound you hear when turning the key on, but not starting the engine. (What is that sound btw)? It seems to be intermittent as well; I only hear it about half of the time while driving.
• I’m not experiencing the locked torque converter issue that stalled other CRD’s. I’m not fighting the engine when depressing the brakes.
• No codes thrown. I got a code a months and months ago, which put me into limp mode, but I cleared it and it hasn’t come back since. Don’t think it’s related.
• I’ve been priming the fuel filter every few days, and it SEEMS to be helping, but it’s only been 3 days since the last stall, so it hasn’t been long enough to determine if it’s actually helping.

As for my own theories, I think it could be AIF, a failing Fuel Quantity Solenoid (located on the injection pump), or some sort of sensor/electronic/ECM issue. But I’m open to any discussion on this thread. Has anyone out there experienced a similar issue? My next move is to install a clear fuel lines before and after the fuel head to check for air.

Thanks for contributing!

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:27 am

Let's start with the simple which is air in the fuel line. Do you have the 1st gen fuel head? See the fuel bleeding procedure video in Sir Sam's NOOB guide for the difference between the 1st and 2n gen head. IMHO if you have the 1st gen head you should just replace it (cost ca. $125 with wiring pigtail and is a 30 minute or less DIY project) however some, Sir Sam if memory serves, are running the 1st gen head just fine with no air in fuel issues. At minimum if you have the 1st gen head pull the fuel heater wire plug (driver's side) and press the primer buld until hard; if any fuel or even hint of fuel (test with a dry paper towel) comes out of where that plug fits into the fuel head you need to replace the fuel head like right now (see http://www.greendieselengineering.com/f ... st/76.page).

Next step to perform regardless of which gen head you have. Bleed the fuel head per Sir Sam's video to purge any air currently in the system (remember this is a pressurized system just like brakes so pump the primer until hard, crack the bleeder valve to release air/fuel, close the bleeder valve, repeat until only fuel comes out - rather than a rag or paper towel I prefer to slip a piece of clear tube over the bleeder leading to a catch bottle so I can see what's coming out and avoid any mess). Drive until you have a problem, obviously with bleeding tools in the vehicle, at which point repeat the bleeding procedure. If you get lots of air and the problem goes away you have the air in the fuel line issue. Solutions 1) 2n gen fuel head; 2) in line lift pump or in tank pump; 3) delete the quick disconnect fuel line fittings (1 in front of tank above differential and another on top of the fuel tank, access requires dropping the tank) by cutting them out and replacing with standard fuel hose.

I had a 1s gen head with a slight fuel leak at the heater element plug and air in the fuel problems. 2n gen head cured the problem. Primer bulb does not stay hard but typically only requires 2-3 pushes to get hard, have not bleed head in 6K miles. stoutdog has the 2n gen head and his primer bulb seems to be softer than mine and takes more to pump up but as far as I know he is not having air in the fuel stalling problems. Both of us have lift pumps in hand to install if need be.

turbobill · **Posted:** Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:47 pm

I have put up a post on issues I had with air in my fuel head AFTER I replaced my fuel filter head. My old (original) design had a samll fuel leak at the heater plug so I installed a anew one with latest design. Still had air problems, almost daily. My CRD would stop shifting into overdrive, other than that it worked fine. Bleed the fuel head and it was fine for a day or two then the problem would reappear.

I have installed a lift pump and all is AOK.

drees617 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:21 am

Thanks for the replies.

Well I was on my way to the parts store to buy some clear fuel line when the Jeep died again while coasting to a stoplight. I bled the fuel head several times, but only fuel came out (no air bubbles). I tried starting it about 8-10 times within a 20 minute period, and the last time I cranked it before it finally started I was holding the throttle down about half way. Does anyone know if the ECM considers throttle input while starting the engine? Or was it just a coincidence that it started while I was depressing the throttle?

To answer your questions, Papaindigo, I’m pretty sure I have a 1st gen fuel head. I unplugged the heater wire and it was burnt (but not completely fried), and there was white powdery stuff in there (similar to battery corrosion). I primed the head and I didn’t see any wetness in the plug (but I’ve read that air could still be leaking in through the plug). It’s probably a good idea to replace the fuel head anyway.

It seems like the stalling is fairly predictable. It happens every 5-7 days, doesn’t start until at least 20 minutes later (but it always starts), and it seems like I’m usually coasting up to a stop light or already idling when it dies.

Could it be related to the throttle position sensor?

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:28 am

Thoughts:
1) unrelated to the stalling but I just noticed the # of miles on your KJ which makes me ask has the timing belt been done? supposed to have been not ca. 100K and if not you are playing with fire and a rather expensive engine repair
2) Sir Sams fuel bleeding video includes a picture of the 2n gen head which has a fuel heater plug that's essentially the same size as the other plug and all the new heater pigtails I've seen have a bright blue cap. Any sign of burning on the fuel heater plug is not good. Mine was a bit singed and I did not have any fuel wetness but I definitely had the air in the fuel problem which went away when I replaced the fuel head. That said if you got no air immediately after a stall then air in the fuel is not your problem but you should replace the fuel head anyway. Note it comes with a new filter installed and a new WIF sensor on that filter, save the extra WIF sensor just in case you need it in the future.
3) How good is your battery? A weak battery or one with internal issues like an intermittent short between cells can cause strange problems with computer controlled systems.
4) Have you checked for codes which may be stored without tripping a CEL?
5) Do you have a code reader plugged in while you are driving? Lots of reports on the forum of this causing all sorts of engine and/or transmission problems.

I have no clue about your throttle position sensor question.

drees617 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:27 am

PapaIndigo,
Thanks for the great feedback. Many of your observations were somewhat correct!

1) Unfortunately I don't know if the PO changed the timing belt at 100K. After reading some posts here I'm getting a little worried about it, and should probably change it to error on the safe side.
2) I took your advice and purchased a new fuel head. Plan on installing it next week when it gets here; will post the results.
3) I had my battery tested at AutoZone once this problem started occurring, which it passed. However he noticed was the battery has fewer cranking amps than recommended. I didn't even realize because the vehicle's always turns over strong. (just won't start sometimes!)
4) I have a ScanGuage II, and have been paying extra attention to thrown codes lately. I got a code after I cleaned the MAP sensor- P0069 (BAROMETRIC PRESSURE (BARO) SENSOR/MANIFOLD ABSOLUTE PRESSURE (MAP) SENSOR INCORRECT VOLTAGE CORRELATION), but I figured it was because the sensor was no longer caked in crud, so I cleared it and it hasn't come back. No other codes however.
5) I have had the ScanGuage plugged in while driving lately... I'll unplug it right away.

The biggest thing I've noticed is that every time the vehicle has died or not started I wasn't depressing the throttle. The last time it started I was pressing on the throttle, which makes me wonder if that has something to do with the problem - just a theory I guess.

I'll report back when the new fuel head is installed... cross your fingers! :jester:

drees617 · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:47 am

Hey guys,
Just thought I'd post and update on the situation. Last weekend I installed the new fuel head, and 2 inches of clear fuel line after the new head. No bubbles after priming. Took it around the block several times and downtown after that, all good. Just starting to think the problem was solved, when it died on the road Sunday morning on the way to church! :banghead:

Once I got it it home it died several times in the driveway as I let it idle for up to 10 minutes at a time. Would let it sit for 15 minutes, and after starting it would die within another 10 minutes.

I've been reading more about this online, and several other diesel owners experienced the same behavior when the Fuel Quantity Solenoid starts to fail. Something about it failing once the engine is warmed up, and won't start until it cools down again, similar to my experiences. I'm going to try to find a diesel shop to talk a look at my fuel system, particularly the injection pump and fuel quantity solenoid, to see if there's anything wrong.

Oh, and I contacted to PO about the timing belt, and it was never replaced at 100k... looks like I'll be spending big $$$ at the shop...

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:03 am

You might check viewtopic.php?f=5&t=63347&p=700175#p700175 for thoughts and a note from GDE as to parts they have.

Ujdy · **Joined:** Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:09 am **Posts:** 1

Hi folks.. Did this ever get resolved?? I seem to be having the same issue. Seems temperature related.

CRD Stalling, Difficultly Starting (sometimes); Air in Fuel?

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