Long Crank time when cold.

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

Sorry if this is a common question but I did some searching and didn't come up with much.
After the CRD sits for the night and is cold (its only about 50 +/- 10*f here at night) it will cranks for a few seconds before it starts. It normally fires right up, any ideas?

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:36 pm

I've got the same symptoms and my garage never gets below 40f all winter, it's heated :SOMBRERO:

Already when temperatures are getting down to 50 as you mention the slow starting is back. It's been that way every winter since I bought it new.
Chrysler was constantly messing with glow plug timing on their flashed to keep the ceramic gp's from burning and I think we're seeing the results. Mine has never sat out overnight when it really got cold so I don't know if the gp's stay on long enough for it to start :juggle:

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:37 pm

Do you have the new glowplugs yet? - the 5v may not be heating as much as the 7v's did.

(glowplug preheat is the only difference on mine)

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:41 pm

ATXKJ wrote:

Do you have the new glowplugs yet? - the 5v may not be heating as much as the 7v's did.

(glowplug preheat is the only difference on mine)

If your asking me No I have the original ceramic GP's :JEEPIN:

And as I stated it has been that way since new.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:48 pm

Actually I was asking painemann - you just type faster than I do

boilermaker2 · **Posted:** Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:57 pm

Joe, did you switch the battery? My redtop was bad almost from the start. Even today, if I do a lot of short commutes I put the charger back on. I think this rig is very finnicky about the voltage and will stop cranking altogether if the voltage drops below 11.8 volt (happened to me two weeks ago when I did not drive it over the weekend and the GPS and Sirius was left on). I bet if you put a charger on it overnight it will start like a champ tomorrow morning.
Let me know,
Scott

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:11 am

Scott.

I've already replaced the Red Top with another Red Top :SOMBRERO:

I first thought that would help but not that I noticed. I randomly charged the first battery but have not on the new one.

I'll give that a try.

***UPDATE*** I hooked up my smart charger and before starting the charge cycle I checked the voltage. It was 12.4 volts :BINGO:

So I'll keep an eye on the state of charge. Optima's site says when in storage keep the voltage above 12.6 :shock:

another site says each cell produces 2.1 volts so that's where the 12.6 comes from. Yet another site said that 12.4 was 75% of full charge.
Information overload :dizzy:

Joe

boilermaker2 · **Posted:** Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:56 am

My Sears battery holds a little over 14Volts fully charged (using the voltage tester on my charger). Any voltage under 12 and my Jeep may or may not act flaky. I went and checked/timed my block heater this morning for you. After two hours plugged in with an ambient T of about 50F the glow plugs did not even flicker when I started it and it turned over like it would if it were 90 outside.
Scott

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:33 pm

FYI - there is a caveat on all Liberty's
the battery has to have enough voltage to turn on the computer.

having enough current to crank the engine - is not the same.
you have to turn on the computer first or it won't run.
(I hadn't heard an exact number but the 11.8 under load sounds about right)

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:24 am

After searching the Optma site a fully charged Red Top should be between 12.6 and 12.8 volts :SOMBRERO:

Try as I might I could not get the voltage above the specified 12.8 volts :banghead:

Yes flooded (conventional) batteries do read over 13. volts when fully charged :BANANA:

So for that reason a conventional battery with lots of capacity might be a better solution.

The F37 instructions specify a battery charger that provides between 13.0 and 13.5 volts, verified with an accurate meter, continuously be connected during the flash. It goes on saying voltages outside of this range will cause a unsuccessful flash :dead:

So yes our ECM/TCM needs proper voltages to function properly and 12.8 max from a red top might be the root of the problem for not only long crank times when cold but could it also possibly cause some transmission problems some experience too?? :frankie:

boilermaker2 · **Posted:** Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:26 am

Joe, this is what I posted on a thread you also particpated in April of 2010:
"bought my P-1 on 11/23/2008. No problems to complain about. Like the warranty. With all of the electronics and electric gadgets (think fuel heater, self-shutting glow-plugs, etc.) I figured I needed the juice. The red-top I had puked and allegedly had a bad cell. Blanket on redtop not big enough to wrap around P-1 but of all things, does it really bother me? If the redtop was bad (and I believe it was for multiple reasons), I blame is on my idler pulley that also knocked out the alternator (written about in an ancient post) ~70,000 miles ago.
FWIW
Boiler"
----I'm still running the same battery. It is NOT a conventional battery, it is an AGM like the RedTop ad consistently ranks at the top of the CR battery tests they run every year (in the November issue for this year)(Everyone, let's not rant about the CR review of the CRD, I remember it and still have it somewhere...I also have their "first look" review that was very favorable which reinforced my decision to make the plunge 6 years ago).

After running the battery dead (my fault), I bought a charger from WM that (a B&D I think) that charges based upon the battery type being charged. It allows me to charge my AGM at up to 40A plus it will trickle charge during the same re-charge event. I do a re-charge during 0Degree weeks or weeks where several short runs are made. I've had good luch so bar with both the charger and battery and will see if it will go through yet another winter, the battery's 4th.

Scott

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

I do have the new glow plugs in.

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:05 pm

painemann wrote:

I do have the new glow plugs in.

GDE had mentioned that the new plugs probably wouldn't hit the same temperature as the old - I think that translates to longer/ harder to start.

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

ATXKJ wrote:

painemann wrote:

I do have the new glow plugs in.

GDE had mentioned that the new plugs probably wouldn't hit the same temperature as the old - I think that translates to longer/ harder to start.

That's crappy! If it's normal oh well but I don't remember it doing this last season. Correct me if I'm wrong, if there is a bad Gplug the the CEL will come on correct?

ATXKJ · **Posted:** Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:31 pm

Yes - but bad should be higher resistance - the originals were ~1-2 ohms - bad was ~ 100-200 ohms and generally the tip was broken off... - don't know about the new - but I'd suspect it's in that range.
Yes - the CEL comes on and the code is PO1261,2,3,4

painemann · **Joined:** Sat Dec 20, 2008 7:02 pm **Posts:** 607

ATXKJ wrote:

Yes - but bad should be higher resistance - the originals were ~1-2 ohms - bad was ~ 100-200 ohms and generally the tip was broken off... - don't know about the new - but I'd suspect it's in that range.
Yes - the CEL comes on and the code is PO1261,2,3,4

Thanks for clearing that up... I don't have any bad plugs (no cel , didn't check resistance yet) and still get this rough cold start.
Maybe I'll try some fuel additive and or a lift pump!

jeepdan · **Posted:** Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:55 am

I have been watching this thread with great interest because CRD #2 has been difficult to start cold lately. Some cold mornings it fires right up. :?:

The starter cranks over fine but it may not start until the third or fourth attempt. After all that cranking I see no abnormal smoke upon firing, so I don't think it is a glow plug issue.

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

Jeepdan,

Does the #2 CRD have the update fuel head from Mopar? Since you are not seeing a cloud of smoke after the start, the fuel rail is most likely not pressurizing as quickly as it should. The rail needs to be at 250bar before the injection is released. The delay usually stems from air in fuel or a worn out/scored fuel inlet metering valve (MPROP).

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:30 am

Yesterday I took Scott's advise and put a Sears P1 Die-hard in my CRD. $208.99 plus tax carry out.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... 000P?mv=rr
The first thing I noticed was that the speed of the starter motor was unbelievable :SOMBRERO:

I bought this jeep new and it has never cranked any way near this fast!! A year ago I had replaced the original red top with a new one with no noticable change :banghead:

Now for the real test, like the original poster 50f degrees and lower seems to be the when my crd started having delayed hard starting and rough running. This has been since new but since it sleeps in a heated garage it was no big deal just an annoyance. Last night it got down to 35 degrees, not frigid but well below 50 and I left the crd sit out all night.
This morning I checked the voltage in the Optima Red Top that is now in my wife's 2000 XJ and it was 12.4 in a 59 degree garage. The voltage on the Sears P1 sitting outside at 35f was 12.7 volts :wink:

Not a lot but the difference in the CRD was night and day :jester:

The starter spun the engine noticeably faster then ever and the engine fired up like it was 80 degrees :-)r

I added a strip of Valcro so I was able to put the blanket back on the larger battery but it now has about a 3" gap :lol:

So for those with slow starting problems when cold this is definetly the first thing to check.
I suspect 50 degrees is when "After Glow" is initiated and the added current draw is the straw that breaks the camel's back voltage wise causing the ecm not to turn on as ATXJ stated above.

For the record I have the original fuel filter head with no leaks and an in tank lift pump that definetly cured my air in fuel problems. I believe the original filter head was a victim of air collecting in the highest point in the system and not the cause :2cents:

And don't forget the filter head is mounted higher in the 06 model year to clear the bigger ABS/ESP pp.

jeepdan · **Posted:** Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:55 pm

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

Jeepdan,

Does the #2 CRD have the update fuel head from Mopar? Since you are not seeing a cloud of smoke after the start, the fuel rail is most likely not pressurizing as quickly as it should. The rail needs to be at 250bar before the injection is released. The delay usually stems from air in fuel or a worn out/scored fuel inlet metering valve (MPROP).

Yes, I updated to the new fuel head back in July shortly after buying the CRD. I can still find air at the bleed at times when I check it, no different than my other CRD. But, the last morning I had trouble it took at least 6-8 pumps to feel good pressure before expelling any air.
The problem seems sporadic, it will start on the first try for maybe a week and then it will act up. Would a worn metering valve give a sporadic problem?
I think I will monitor and keep any air out of the fuel head on a daily basis for a while to see if it is a air problem.
Thanks for the reply GDE.
P S, I'm trying hard to get enough cash together for another Eco-Tune. I just spent over $200.00 for a thermostat, serpentine belt, and a block heater cord. :dizzy:

Long Crank time when cold.

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