Possible Bad Diesel?

Gump · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:32 am

Can bad Diesel cause this or do I have a larger problem? I am kinda ignorant when it comes to engines much less Diesels.

Up to about 2 weeks ago, my CRD was running fine. One morning I got a Diesel fill up on the way to work. I always watch to make sure they use the Green hose to fill my tank. (Living in Oregon they do not like to let you fill your own tank.) Got the fill up and drove to work without issue. When I left work that evening, every time I came to a stop (about 10 of them) and then tried to start moving again, the vehicle would act like I had no power and would just slowly roll forward at about 1 mile an hour with black smoke billowing out the back, after about 3-4 seconds (just enough to get into the middle of the intersection) all of a sudden the turbo would kick in, jump forward and all the built up fuel in the system would exit the exhaust in a big black cloud. This happend for the next 2 days. I then added a fuel additive, to clean and remove moisture, thinking there might have been some water in the Diesel since I had no issues priory to that tank fill up. Needless to say the next few days did not seem to change but then the weather got colder something changed. We are seeing morning temps in the upper 30s and evenings in the upper 50s. Now I have had a series of days where everything is perfect. No issues of any kind and then it gets a little warmer and the problem returns only to go away again when it gets cooler. Another odd thing is that when I do have the problem and the vehicle is moving very slowly, the normal Diesel sound goes away and is almost silent like an electric car and then the turbo kicks in and the rest of the Diesel sounds are back.

I still have half a tank left. Not sure if I should siphon the tank and start fresh or take it to the dealer. I don't have a garage but I could use my cousins in a pinch. Not much direct experience working on engines, but I am handy and he has some experience doing minor maintenance on older Dodge Diesels. He is at a loss for the symptoms I am having.

Thanks for any feedback.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:06 am

Any CELs?

When was the last time you changed your fuel filter?

Gump · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:15 am

I have had an engine light since it started acting up. Have not been to the dealer and not sure how to see a CEL.

I'm not sure the fuel filter has ever been replaced. I always took it in for the normal oil change but not sure I remember them doing the fuel filter.

I found the "Sam's CRD Noob Guide:" so I'm going thru that now. I'm sure I will be following many of the items listed.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:27 am

First off, we need to know those engine codes, autozone checker etc etc will almost always read codes for you for free. If you post back with those codes we can help you further.

Second, if you have never changed your fuel filter 30k miles is just about the max that you will ever see out of them, and it really ought to be changed before then(though I don't usually heed my own advice, do as I say, not as I do)

Last, if your MAP sensor has never been cleaned it really ought to be.

However all of this is moot, the codes really give us a good direction to start from, they could indicate its something like a clogged fuel filter, dirty map, ruptured boost hoses, or bad fuel. Get those codes read ASAP!

Gump · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:33 am

Thank you Sir Sam. I'm going to do that the first chance I get tomorrow.

naturist · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:47 pm

(1) there is nothing magical about the green hose. By that, I mean that you certainly must pay attention to whether they attempt to put in diesel or gasoline, the problem is that there is no color standard as to which hose or pump handle color is used for diesel. You MUST read the flippin' SIGN, not rely on color.

(2) yes, bad diesel (aka water, gasoline, general crud) can do that.

(3) I think it unlikely that the fuel filter is causing the problem, as when that occurs, the engine will go into limp mode, requiring you to turn it off and restart in order to recover. It will not, as you described, act up, then suddenly resume working on its own. That said, it is still true that the fuel filter MUST be changed at least every 30,000 miles lest it start forcing limp mode.

(4) The best cure for bad fuel is to drain it and refill with good fuel. Trying to run out the bad fuel, while sometimes successful, is fraught with other bad hazards: clogging fuel filter, injection pump or injector damage among them. Given that you have 4 injectors (aboug $500 each) and a $1500 injection pump, making sure only good fuel goes in there is well worth the effort that takes.

(5) In Oregon, it is true that the law forbids you pumping your own gasoline. However that law does not apply to diesel fuel. You can indeed pump your own diesel, although not all stations and pump jockeys know that or will allow it. Personally, to avoid the stupidity of someone putting gas in my tank, I insist on pumping my own, and have been known to drive away from stations rather than let someone else do it.

Gump · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:32 pm

naturist - thanks for the reply. You are correct about the green hose. In this case I have always gone to the same station and I do watch for the label. In this case the green hose is the Diesel pump and they only have 2 stations out of 6 and I almost always hit the same station. As to pumping my own, they will not let me. I have tried. I have not bothered to go find another station somewhere else just so I can pump it myself.

I am probably going to do the following:
- Get the CEL code
- Dump the fuel and get fresh
- Replace the Fuel Filter since I am over 30k, I have never done this myself and I do not recall the dealer doing during an oil change.
- Clean the MAP and MAF sensors.

mikey1273 · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:03 pm

MAP and fuel filters are easy to service. I did mime with in weeks of having this as my first diesel. I have done the feul filter twice.... got easier the second time. read in the tech section how to do those things bleeding the air is the hardest part or was for me the first time. If you have a Napa they should stock or be able to get you the filter fast.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:58 pm

Step one, GET THE CODES :dizzy:

Other then normal maintenance like changing the fuel filter is a waste of time :JEEPIN:

naturist · **Posted:** Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:41 pm

Joe Romas wrote:

Step one, GET THE CODES :dizzy:

Other then normal maintenance like changing the fuel filter is a waste of time :JEEPIN:

Joe is right, get the codes!

One thing you might do is use the drain on the bottom of the filter to remove any water. That's what it is there for, and having too much water in there (that's one way of getting bad fuel) is another thing that might cause the sort of bad behavior you are seeing. And yes, if you have fuel with excessive water in it, you want to get rid of THAT as soon as possible -- it'll rust out that expensive IP. If that's the problem, the filter drain will deliver a goodly slug of water when you open it. Good fuel, btw, might turn up a tablespoon of water every 10,000 miles or so.

So, get the codes, and check for water.

Gump · **Posted:** Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:40 am

Ok, before I go into the codes and what I've done, I have a new symptom to add. While driving to the auto store I experienced the said symptoms. When I came to the next light, instead of just letting the vehicle slowly creep into the intersection and then kick the turbo in and dump a bunch of smoke, I lightly pumped the throttle 2-3 times, which caused the power to kick in and was able to get through the intersection in half the time with half the smoke. Not as good as normal but a significant difference from the previous symptoms without the pumping.

Ok, the codes:
P0401 Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) Flow Insufficient
P0299 Unidentified Fuel Air Mixture Metering (missed the last part)

What I have done:
- Cleaned the MAP and the MAF. MAP was really bad, MAF not too bad, but cleaned it with MAF cleaner. MAP just with a gasoline wash.
- Replaced the Air Filter with a WIX Air Filter
- Purchased a WIX Fuel Filter. Will be installing on Saturday and siphoning the remainder of the tank.

I have only driven it 2 miles since the above but I'm still having the same symptoms. However I did notice a lot more smoke at running speed compared to normal. Usually I only see the smoke during the stop to go transition or hard acceleration. Now I see it almost the entire drive and low acceleration. A slight 1deg incline trying to maintain 35MH had significantly more smoke than I expected. Normally this would not have any smoke.

Thanks for all the feedback so far.

DieselJeepLuvr · **Posted:** Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:04 am

Sounds like you blew an intercooler line. Which would throw the A/F code. You may also have an egr valve stuck open. As for bad fuel... check your reciept from that fateful day. Your reciept will show if it was diesel or unleaded.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:24 am

Got to love generic code readers and what they tell you. P0299 is BOOST PRESSURE SENSOR POSITIVE DEVIATION and P0401 is EGR SOLENOID CIRCUIT NEGATIVE DEVIATION which probably means you have a bad boost pressure solenoid. The check is to bypass that solenoid and see if the problem goes away, if so the fix is to replace the solenoid. GDE's write up says "By-passing of the on/off solenoid is very straight forward. Trace the vacuum line output from the black plastic reservoir (FYI that's the thing just behind the air cleaner box with several vacuum lines attached) to the input of the on/off solenoid. Remove this vacuum line and plug it directly into the turbo EVM on the port labeled "VAC". The turbo EVM is the one with the blue rubber isolator and vacuum line running directly to turbo." If you want a picture drop me an email.

If you have not already done so go to Sir Sams NOOB guide and find the link to the manuals. Download BOTH the 2005 and 2006 FSMs. Both have content "issues" the 2005 FSM lacks diagnostic codes (published separate that year) and some diesel cooling info but does have keys to the #ed items in the figures while he 2006 FSM has the diagnostic codes but lacks the figure keys. When you pull codes with a generic code reader check the FSM for what the code means not what the generic code reader claims it means.

I strongly suspect the solenoid is your problem but while digging around you probably should 1) pull your turbo>intercooler>engine hoses off and carefully inspect for any possible leaks primarily on the bottom (this involves manipulating the hose and poking it with your fingers - oil soaked hose and/or soft spots=need to replace with Samco's or 2n gen OEM); 2) before putting those hoses back on check your airbox to turbo hose for a bad split on the bottom right where it connects the turbo (if split get OEM replacement); 3) also look into the FCV (Flow Control Valve) which is where the driver's side intercooler connects to see if the butterfly is open (I'm doing this one by memory that the butterfly is supposed to be open with the engine not running but am not 100% sure of my memory); and 4) once everything is back together you might also check turbo van function. Per GDE "You can check the vane functionality at idle in park. Underneath the vacuum actuator on the turbo is rod extending downward connected to the vane mechanism. If you pull off the vacuum line at the turbo, the arm should drop about 1/2 inch and then raise back up after reconnecting the vacuum line. It is a bit difficult to see the rod, but this is the easiest method to check for proper VGT vane moevment."

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

P0401 EGR insufficient flow
P0299 Underboost

Your EGR system is not functioning properly. This will only continue to degrade.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:02 pm

GDE - Different from the FSM? Not that I should be too surprised.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:08 pm

P0299 is underboost, which usually means the boost hoses are split or there is some other problem. Check your boost hoses for rips or tears.

However with the 0401 it sounds like the EGR is causing underboost problems, its probably time for a new EGR.

geordi · **Posted:** Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:49 am

Ditto what the others have said about a ripped boost hose, you will need to pull them off completely and carefully feel all around them with a finger pressing in from the outside. Any soft spots indicate where the liner has degraded... Holes are obvious answers.

As for the EGR code, there are several options... Depending on how you want to proceed, you can replace the EGR, and plan to replace it again in 16-20k miles... Or solve the problem forever with a GDE tune and / or an SEGR device.

It is possible that the EGR has failed open, but I would look for failed hoses first - it's cheaper and easier to check and replace, and there are only 2 of them.

nissanfrontier · **Joined:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:09 pm **Posts:** 145

If this guy is not mechanical he may be experiencing fuel pressure problems. Fuel filter head may have hole in it were it melts at fuel heater plug. May need to replace this part and leave heater unplugged or I pulled the relay on mine they get hot!

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:45 pm

Either torn boost hose or your EGR valve is sticking open.

Gump · **Posted:** Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:48 pm

Update:

Tried to siphon the tank but could not get the hose down into the tank, so we figured we could just take a sampling from the fuel head when we replaced the fuel filter

Took the fuel filter off and found it to be very black. I do not think that the dealership has ever replaced this during the routine oil changes. We captured what was within the filter by draining it into a glass jar. What came out was initially clear and then turned black the more we let it drain. While the filter was draining we took another jar and pumped about 8oz into it from the fuel head. Was clean and looked and smelled like Diesel.

Fuel Filter has now been replaced.

Inspected the CAC/boost/intercooler hoses (too many names for the same thing). The turbo side hose was free of dirt and oil on the outside but slightly soft or easy to squeeze. We did not take it off. Could this still have a leak? We did see some oil where the air intake hose met the turbo and the clamp seemed slightly loose so we tightened the clamp. The driver side however was a different story. It was coated in oil. I did not see oil anywhere else, just on the hose itself. We pulled this hose and it was coated with oil. We cleaned it up but didn't see any issues. We replaced it with one from the dealer anyhow.

While we had the CAC hose off, we did see the valve where the hose meets the engine. We were able to push the flap back and forth and could feel the motor connected to it. But is seemed to move easy enough.

I still have an engine light. I am seeing little if any black smoke, but I seem to have reduced power or I am second guessing my seat dyno. I'm going to see if I can get another CEL code reading today and see if we at least removed the P0299 code. My cousin has other commitments today so I will not have his assistance or his garage to use.

I have the 2005/2006 Jeep Liberty Service Manual on CD and I have found a diagram of where the EGR value and EGR Air Flow Control Valve is. I did not realize that was what we were looking at when we removed the CAC. I also found the Boost Pressure Solenoid. I plan be attempt the mentioned tests on these items today.

Possible Bad Diesel?

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