KJ CRD Achilles Heel

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 12:16 pm

The folks on this board have done a terrific job of figuring out what proactive steps can be taken to head off/minimize most of the known problems with the KJ CRD. However, it seems that there is a huge problem that I have not seen a way of addressing yet that has to do with what happens when the turbo fails. From what I understand, when this occurs, the engine loses all its oil through the failed turbo within a minute or two and is thus ruined. My wife mostly drives our CRD and though I have emphasized that she MUST shutoff instantly if it EVER starts running poorly, who knows if she will do it quickly enough.

My guess is that the low oil pressure warning light does not come on until all the oil is gone and it is too late. With miles accumulating, we will be seeing more and more turbo failures. It would obviously be really good to keep the damage down to just the turbo.

Anybody have any bright ideas?

Thanks as always,

DOC

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 1:47 pm

Not exactly "news" (see viewtopic.php?f=5&t=56958&p=635986&hilit=turbo+failure#p635986) nor is this necessarily a KJ CRD specific problem in the sense that catastropic loss of most all engine oil, for what ever reason/thru whatever failed seal or oil line, regardless of the location of an oil idiot light or gauge sender on any engine gives you only seconds to react before internal engine damage can or will occur.

Is the KJ CRD more prone to this type of failure I don't know although I'm not inspired by the turbo oil line designs but I don't know how those designs compare to other turbo oil systems. Also note that turbo failure does not automatically equal catastrophic oil loss unless the failure is due to a blown oil line or seal. For example there have been several failures due to problems with the turbo shaft bearing allowing the turbo vanes to contact the housing with little to no oil loss.

What can you do:
1. use the specified type and weight of oil. The KJ CRD (maybe other engines) has very small oil passages so improper oil can result in insufficient lube where it's needed.
2. spin off of 1 use a quality brand oil filter and don't stretch your filter/oil change interval to save the pennies involved. IMHO anyone going more than 6k miles between filter/oil changes is just asking for trouble and the cost of that change is only about $0.01 per mile (yes I can remember when that was my gas cost per mile but using the extended interval only cuts that cost to $0.005 per mile; sometimes money "saved" is just not worth the risk of the saving)
3. install an oil pressure gauge may help but won't change that brief window you have to act if there is a catastropic loss of oil. geordi and I have discussed this (others have weighed in with similar or different opinions) and we would like to install the sending unit in one of the 3 available ports in the same oil gallery as feeds the turbo on the theory that this location might give you a slightly better bit of warning that installing the sending unit off a "T" with the idiot light sender next to the oil filter. Is that a better location, IMHO yes. Is that location easy to get to, NO. I'm not sure it's accessible without removal of the turbo and at least 1 heat shield but when I do the GDE turbo install I intend to find out. How to tap in; not sure as clearance appears to be a problem although one forum member suggested a banjo bolt rig which might solve the clearance problem.
4. better turbo feed/return lines might be an option but I have no clue never having seen same.
5. pull the turbo air line so you can look at the vanes for any tip damage at a regular interval - might be worth doing if, of course, you are willing to do so at a regular interval.

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 2:27 pm

Mine is proof that not all oil seal failures automatically result in engine catastrophe......when mine went, it was a three step process. 1st, oil seal had started to leak unbeknownst to me, which an oil pressure sensor may or may not have caught in time, so engine was low on oil (I was regretably not diligent enough in checking oil levels, and may have contributed, as to be honest I dont know how long the engine ran in this condition). 2nd, very cold start (15°f) combined with low oil flew, caused bearing damage.....allowing vane contact with the housing and spitting a vane out the exhaust. 175mi after initial failure, the oil seal blew out, but not at such a rate that allowed me to limp it in to the next town 15mi away that had a dealership.

No way of knowing for 100% certainty if there was any bearing or cylinder wall damage, other than was visually inspected and verified by three tech when three turbo was replaced. It its however running perfectly fine at the moment with no signs of permanent damage. But, even if its driving fine, I can't help but wonder what kind of accelerated wear was done, at the very least........and how that skull reduce the reliability "long term"

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:32 pm

No "newsflash" was being issued. I've been on this board since 2008 and, along with everyone else, have been seeing incidents of CRD turbo failure leading to engine loss mounting up and have been waiting for an approach to this issue to be presented. Finally, I brought it up in the hopes it would stimulate some group creative thinking.

These incidents are only going to increase in frequency as the "fleet" ages. Addressing this issue successfully will benefit all of us, so I am mystified by your attitude.

I agree that measuring oil pressure as close to the turbo as possible should help, but still may not work well enough. The electronic wizards here can comment if the following would be too complex to practically implement: Measure pressure both as close to the turbo as possible and near the oil pump. Have a logic circuit that triggers an alarm if there is more than a certain differential between the two values. (This would minimize "false" warnings when oil is hot, engine goes to idle and pressure is relatively low.) (BTW, when Keith recovers from shoulder surgery, hopefully he will develop a 'plug-in" for TORQUE that will read actual oil pressure, temp and trans temp.)

While not totally clear, it looks like 2Mopar's turbo failure may have been due to a relatively slow oil leak that might have been picked up by more frequent oil level checks. I'm specifically referring to sudden oil loss such as Geordi experienced that requires almost immediate shutdown to avoid catastrophic engine failure.

DOC

smokinbubba · **Joined:** Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:15 pm **Posts:** 29

I think I should jump in here since I am on my 4th turbo. Original turbo had 75k on it(or so) when the variable veins stuck and the turbo oversped destroying the bearing. Threw a code for overspeed. A simple fix for this would have been the easy off oven cleaner cleaning like I do to my TDI's. If I only knew then what I know now.

1st replacement turbo had 75k(or so) on it when I had it installed and had only the slightest play on the mainshaft. This one ended up blowing the seal and droping out 3 qts of oil(or so) from the crankcase. No idiot lite, no code, just got LOUD

2nd replacement turbo had "low miles" on it and also had only the slightest mainshaft play when I had it installed. This one never oversped, developed an oil leak or anything. It simply started making loud noise. I just had it replaced this week and inspection shows that the shaft bearing is SHOT and the turbine contacted the housing bigtime.

3rd replacement turbo is a BRAND NEW garrett. I only have about three hundred miles on it so far......so we will see!

My rig. 06 CRD bought new in 06
Amsoil 5w40 since 5k miles
Amsoil oil filter since new, twice a year.
Been changing oil once a yr (12k miles) and the filter every 6 mos.(6k miles) NOT ANYMORE!!
Run B-100 6mos a year dino the other 6
86k on the clock now

My recommendations:

Change oil every 5k
Once a year, do the easy off turbo cleaning procedure.
Let your turbo warm up and cool down EVERY TIME IT RUNS
Dont baby it, blow the carbon out once a week or more.
LISTEN FOR LOUD OR STRANGE NOISES COMING FROM THE ENGINE BAY AND SHUT IT OFF IMMEDIATLY IF YOU DO. TRAIN THE DRIVER TO LISTEN FOR WEIRD NOISES. My wife actually called me last month and told me the turbo "went again" so she can recognise the warning signs.

If you can swing it, go with a GDE turbo. I just could not afford it. Garrett should be ashamed that they dont offer a replacement cartridge so these things can be rebuilt after thet turbine contacts the housing.

Sorry for being so long winded

Bubba

JL Rockies · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:47 pm

I change the oil every 7K miles
Never heard of the "easy off turbo cleaning procedure"
Have never waited for warm up or cool down. No problems.

smokinbubba · **Joined:** Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:15 pm **Posts:** 29

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.ph ... 287&page=4

Look here at reply #48 for the easy off oven cleaner method of chemically cleaning a variable vane turbo on a VW TDI.

I have personally done this on a MK4 TDI that would constantly go into limp mode. Now runs like a new one!

nissanfrontier · **Joined:** Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:09 pm **Posts:** 145

I think maybe a better way would be add oil tank with cap and maybe warning sensor attached for low level somehow shoe horn this into turbo. I think superchargers have oil capacities were you add fluid. Then somehow terminate old line to turbo. Clean oil should work better I recon. Also why do they use oven off? Would deep creep work better or brake cleaner. Ok dry sump how about outboard res for 2cycle oil they also come with bottom and side opening with cap on top like Yamaha outboards. Was also think hell they have sensor built in them shoot all parts I would need. Would drip and gravity be enough for lubing. Johnson outboards also have remote tanks with pumps.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:25 pm

What you are taiking about is converting to a dry sump. Big $$. Don't know whether an oil level sensor in the side of the existing (wet) sump would be practical, but maybe someone who knows more could comment.

DOC

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:59 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

While not totally clear, it looks like 2Mopar's turbo failure may have been due to a relatively slow oil leak that might have been picked up by more frequent oil level checks. I'm specifically referring to sudden oil loss such as Geordi experienced that requires almost immediate shutdown to avoid catastrophic engine failure.

DOC

I agree to a point..........the initial failure off the bearing was surely caused by the leaking seal and consequent low oil condition. However, in my attempt to make it home after finding the problem, the Oil seal did fail completely. Dumping nearly a gallon and half off oil into the intake stream within the 17mi after it blew before making it into the dealer. I was lucky to have bought an extra gallon of oil to have on hand for insurance when I initially recognized the low oil problem.

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 10:09 pm

What most fail to realize its that there are two halves to the turbo, with two oil seals..........one deals off the oil from exhaust turbine, the other from the compressor side. It was my compressor side that failed, not both and not just the exhaust. The wurst case scenario is that both seals fail at the same time........this would result in the most rapid loss of oil.

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:37 pm

Smokinbubba,

Huge amount of infothere with many variations for VW TDI turbo cleaning. Have you actually done this with your KJ CRD? If so, can you detail how much actuator movement you had when you started and how much you had when you were done? Can you do this on the Jeep without the vacuum pump? Please provide details regarding how you went about it and any changes you might make in the future if you do it again.

I'm about to do the timing belt service and plan to install SAMCO turbo hoses at that time. I'll be getting a good look inside the turbo and will see about soot buildup and reduced vane range of movement.

Thanks!

DOC

Lancer · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:55 am

I'd be interested in this as well!

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:23 am

I would also like to know more about how to clean the CRD turbo via the Oven Cleaner method.

But in the meantime this simple way may get you out of a jamb.

Here is a quick way to free the crud from the exhaust side of the turbo vanes.

1. First check for turbo vane health with a vaccum pump connected to the turbo actuator.

If movement is sluggish then proceed to do the following:

2. Find a steep hill and from a dead stop, point the nose of the Jeep to the sky and floor the gas pedal. Put the pedal to the metal and begin to blow out the crud.

Note: If your turbo is clogged, you will get an engine code on the dash indicating that you have a turbo under or over boost and your vehicle will go into limp home mode.

No problem, turn off the code with your code reader so that you are no longer in limp homemode and do the process over again several times until you notice better turbo vane movement.

3. Now that the turbo is warmed up take the CRD out on a long highway drive where you will continue to blow out the crud.

Vane movement should be back to full.

If the engine light returns during this first attempt, then continue to drive the vehicle normally and redo the process again later in the week.

This process is Known as the turbo tune up in the diesel community.

And here is the most important note to remember: Follow the turbo cool down procedure as stated in your owners manual so that you don't suffer a worse catastrophy such as a warped cylinder head or leaky head gasket. So allow the engine and turbo especially, to properly cool down after a trip.

Racer

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:24 am

racertracer wrote:

And here is the most important note to remember: Follow the turbo cool down procedure as stated in your owners manual so that you don't suffer a worse catastrophy such as a warped cylinder head or leaky head gasket. So allow the engine and turbo especially, to properly cool down after a trip.

Racer

I'm positive that we have not stressed enough the importance of having a pyrometer...........everywhere else where diesels are discussed, two gauges are pretty much mentioned as standard. Boost/pyrometer, with pyrometer being most important...........it was the first upgrade I did for the dodge, even before power was added.From now on, that will be my #1 suggestion to prevent failures........improper shut down is the biggest cause of failure, and not knowing what temps your turbo was subjected to is making things worse.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:12 am

DOC4444 - no "attitude" just inartful comment to the effect that there has been some chat about this topic.

Was not aware Keith had surgery. Hope that went well.

Other thoughts:
1. I'm at least as guilty as others if not more so but checking the oil level at EVERY fill-up would be very prudent. I used to do so all the time but I know I've gotten really lax over the years as today's engines almost never use any oil. Bad me, better improve.
2. geordi had or may still be looking into a low oil alarm in the oil sump (cure for failure to do #1 and might help catch catastropic loss quickly) such as those used in aircraft engines.
3. your alarm notion makes me wonder if there is a way to measure pressure (with/without an alarm) at both the turbo oil feed and turbo oil return line. I'm thinking that both should be under pressure and any loss between those 2 points would only be from turbo oil leak.
4. it may just be me but spraying my turbo vanes with Easy-Off oven cleaner I'd just as soon not do until some other member actually does it. In the interim an occasional Italian tune-up seems prudent and I've got a deposit in for a GDE turbo anyway.

Squeeto · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:51 pm

papaindigo wrote:

4. it may just be me but spraying my turbo vanes with Easy-Off oven cleaner I'd just as soon not do until some other member actually does it.

I wouldn't worry about the turbo so much as the catalytic converter.
Rinsing with water before reconnecting the exhaust seems like a good idea if anyone tries this.

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:00 pm

Couple things to note in here:

I have had a total of three turbos, two failures and one (currently installed) that was buggy from the factory. None were "used" installs as far as I know.

My first turbo was the one that I bought with the CRD. It had 30k miles on the entire CRD before I bought it, no idea of any problems. It lasted until 65k miles or so, and failed on a VERY cold morning by snapping the turbine (exhaust) side wheel off when the shaft welded itself shut. You don't need to fail both sides to lose the engine, I lost all the oil in about 30 seconds to 1 minute. Catastrophic engine damage resulted.

Second turbo failure - This turbo *came with* the replacement engine and already had 65k miles or so on it, as did the engine. Wore out the center journal bearing and contacted the housing on the compressor side, at 110k total miles on engine and turbo. Made LOTS of squeaking type noises and was accompanied by slow leak. Seems the noise went up as the oil pressure (and level) went down. Thankfully no catastrophic engine damage, 9k miles have been driven since then. I have since rebuilt this turbo, but it is not installed in anything. It is for sale and I would confidently install it in my CRD.

Third turbo is the only one that I bought new from a Jeep dealer. Came from the factory with some weird sticking problem, I don't know what is wrong but it is difficult to explain what it does. I don't like it or think that replacement of the bearing will solve the problem. It doesn't leak oil, so it stays in for the moment.

I was planning on a GDE turbo for Christmas... Had to buy a transmission and transfer case instead. Transfer case failed while being towed (correctly in neutral) and tore one of the gears in half, re-engaged the transmission and burnt it up. Freak accident.

As for turbo upgrades:

The turbo oil return line is NOT PRESSURIZED. It is a simple tube that shoves into a rubber grommet in the block, leading directly to the sump.
Papaindigo and I have discussed the oil gallery option for placement of a new oil sensor. I think this will be a good location, and I like the idea of a dual-sensor comparator between the main idiot sensor at the bottom and a new one on the top of the engine. Problem is: The main sensor is an on-off type, that "if-there-is-any-pressure-at-all-then-I-don't-do-a-damn-thing" type. They suck, and would need to be replaced by a REAL pressure sensor. I'm not sure this can be programmed or is even possible. I do think that the oil gallery locations should be possible to use, and might be fairly easy once one of the heat shields is pulled. If it is just the top shield, that would be very easy indeed. Haven't had a chance to look, my CRD is currently in the shop for the transmission / 4wd.

The oil level sensor in the pan - Requires 3 inches of depth to use the aircraft sensor I found, not sure if we have that and I'm not about to go drilling exploration holes in my pan to check. The ONLY sensor I have found so far is an "intellistick" for about $500 that can read level and temperature from the pan. I don't have one yet, but it seems like the best solution for the least damage to the vehicle... But LOTS of wallet damage.

I've been thinking about this a lot, but I haven't found any successful options just yet. Maybe someone else can add to the discussion?

rebar · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:01 pm

DOC4444 wrote:

My guess is that the low oil pressure warning light does not come on until all the oil is gone and it is too late. With miles accumulating, we will be seeing more and more turbo failures. It would obviously be really good to keep the damage down to just the turbo.

Anybody have any bright ideas?

Thanks as always,

DOC

Never having owned a Turbo diesel, I didn't know the turbo alone could cause this type of catastrophic damage. Now Im thinking I need to upgrade my GDE order to include the turbo.. Wow

DOC4444 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:07 pm

The GDE turbo kit is a great product and likely to last longer than oem, but it is still subject to eventual failure. A good method needs to be developed to alert the driver to quickly shutdown when massive oil loss is occuring.

DOC

KJ CRD Achilles Heel

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