When the stock battery finally goes out

Joe Dirt · **Posted:** Fri Dec 30, 2011 11:03 pm

I just replaced my red top. It was still working fine but for the past 2 winters it would crank and start very hard. I replaced it and it starts like new now. Wish I would have done it 2 years ago.

WolverineFW · **Posted:** Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:10 am

dirtmover wrote:

WolverineFW wrote:

http://www.polarbattery.com/

I think I paid around $230. I got quoted the same price at another place that looked into getting it. Might have found a better price if I really hunted around. Cheapest I could find an Odessey for was $310.

So, why would I buy one of these instead of say 3 Costco batteries which will cost a similar amount and come with a total of 9 years, 100% replacement warranty?

Also the battery is an AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) meaning all acid is absorbed into mats inside the battery, therefore will not spill out. Battery is not considered hazardous goods for shipping, unlike normal lead acid batteries. This is a bonus if you want to mount the battery inside your vehicle for a dual battery setup like some people have on this forums

It also is more tolerant to charge/discharge cycles and it has a 125 minute power reserve. Most lead acid batteries have between 75-90 minutes of power reserve I believe.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:36 am

Siardi wrote:

I have an optima that's less than one year old, the previous owner changed it before selling the car. I have no problems when starting, other than when it's around 30 degrees takes a couple of seconds to start, nothing too bad, now, the other day i decided to check the voltage on the battery with the engine off and I measured 12.27 volts, is that OK?

Also,today for the first time I noticed that the radio volume controls on the steering wheel did not work for a while, then they came back, I read somewhere somebody had that trouble before replacing the battery. could my 8 months old made in Mexico Optima be dying??

Normal voltage for a fully charged 6 cell lead-acid battery is around 12.8 volts, so at 12.3 volts you are only around 2/3 charged. If this reading was taken right after the engine was shut down, either the battery or the charging system is bad. Check the voltage with the engine running; if it isn't at least 13.8 volts then you need to look more closely at the charging system. I have had bad grounds between the engine and the alternator, as well as bad/corroded connections, affect charging voltages and currents, so don't assume it's the alternator or the regulator. One thing that can be particularly annoying is the situation where the connection is ok for light loads but imposes significant resistance when the load is increased. Use of no-ox and thorough wirebrushing of alternator/engine connections is now SOP for me.

One modification I intend to make a standard on all my vehicles is the use of a 'high-output' alternator. This tyoe of alternator provides more current at highway speeds, but more importantly, it provides design level currents while the engine is at IDLE. This is extremely useful in maintaining full charge, and also appears to significantly extend battery life. I ran a factory stock Motorcraft battery in my wife's 2000 Ranger for 9 years/175K miles with a high-output alternator before I finally replaced it, and it still started the engine quickly when I pulled it, even on cold days, but I decided I didn't want to risk any problems.

Now with all of that said, yes, if I were forced to guess, I would guess you have a bad battery, but I would not assume that there are no other faults in the charging system. Check charging voltage. then check connections and grounds, Chronic undercharging EATS batteries.

Siardi · **Posted:** Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:34 am

LMWatBullRun wrote:

Siardi wrote:

I have an optima that's less than one year old, the previous owner changed it before selling the car. I have no problems when starting, other than when it's around 30 degrees takes a couple of seconds to start, nothing too bad, now, the other day i decided to check the voltage on the battery with the engine off and I measured 12.27 volts, is that OK?

Also,today for the first time I noticed that the radio volume controls on the steering wheel did not work for a while, then they came back, I read somewhere somebody had that trouble before replacing the battery. could my 8 months old made in Mexico Optima be dying??

Normal voltage for a fully charged 6 cell lead-acid battery is around 12.8 volts, so at 12.3 volts you are only around 2/3 charged. If this reading was taken right after the engine was shut down, either the battery or the charging system is bad. Check the voltage with the engine running; if it isn't at least 13.8 volts then you need to look more closely at the charging system. I have had bad grounds between the engine and the alternator, as well as bad/corroded connections, affect charging voltages and currents, so don't assume it's the alternator or the regulator. One thing that can be particularly annoying is the situation where the connection is ok for light loads but imposes significant resistance when the load is increased. Use of no-ox and thorough wirebrushing of alternator/engine connections is now SOP for me.

One modification I intend to make a standard on all my vehicles is the use of a 'high-output' alternator. This tyoe of alternator provides more current at highway speeds, but more importantly, it provides design level currents while the engine is at IDLE. This is extremely useful in maintaining full charge, and also appears to significantly extend battery life. I ran a factory stock Motorcraft battery in my wife's 2000 Ranger for 9 years/175K miles with a high-output alternator before I finally replaced it, and it still started the engine quickly when I pulled it, even on cold days, but I decided I didn't want to risk any problems.

Now with all of that said, yes, if I were forced to guess, I would guess you have a bad battery, but I would not assume that there are no other faults in the charging system. Check charging voltage. then check connections and grounds, Chronic undercharging EATS batteries.

Thank you!!!
The test I did was right after I got home having done about 40 miles mostly hwy.
Ok, so I check with the engine running at idle and I measure 14.2 volts, so the alternator (which also the Prior owner changed) is charging fine, or so it seems.

I will check all the connections for any flaw and go from there.

Thank you again !!!

PS: Funny thing.... I just bought a new battery for my Chevy Express. Bought it from Napa, after sitting on a shelf for who knows how long and before I even put it on the truck I measure 12.67 volts, more than I have on a supposedly freshly charged Optima on the Jeep :?:

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:47 pm

Quote:

<snip>
Now with all of that said, yes, if I were forced to guess, I would guess you have a bad battery, but I would not assume that there are no other faults in the charging system. Check charging voltage. then check connections and grounds, Chronic undercharging EATS batteries.

Thank you!!!
The test I did was right after I got home having done about 40 miles mostly hwy.
Ok, so I check with the engine running at idle and I measure 14.2 volts, so the alternator (which also the Prior owner changed) is charging fine, or so it seems.

I will check all the connections for any flaw and go from there.

Thank you again !!!

PS: Funny thing.... I just bought a new battery for my Chevy Express. Bought it from Napa, after sitting on a shelf for who knows how long and before I even put it on the truck I measure 12.67 volts, more than I have on a supposedly freshly charged Optima on the Jeep :?:

If you can, try checking the voltage at idle with everything turned on, lights, radio cranked, fan on high, plug-in devices, etc. If it's still 14.2, then you probably only have a bad battery. I have heard that AGM batteries do not react well to high current, either flow or charge; it may be that this battery is not a good match for the load of cranking a diesel.

mikey1273 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:59 pm

I got a lead acid Advance auto gold battery for about $100 been good 2 winters

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:03 pm

LMWatBullRun wrote:

. I have heard that AGM batteries do not react well to high current, either flow or charge; it may be that this battery is not a good match for the load of cranking a diesel.

AGM batteries are designed for high amp loads and tend to last alot longer then lead acid batteries under the same high amps loads.AGM's are also very vibration resistant compared to a lead acid battery which makes a great choice for a oil burner.

My AGM battery is rated for a 1500amp draw for like 5-10 seconds.Never will get that with alead acid battery.Big plus is no more science projects growing the battery terminals with a AGM battery.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:30 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

. I have heard that AGM batteries do not react well to high current, either flow or charge; it may be that this battery is not a good match for the load of cranking a diesel.

AGM batteries are designed for high amp loads and tend to last alot longer then lead acid batteries under the same high amps loads.AGM's are also very vibration resistant compared to a lead acid battery which makes a great choice for a oil burner.

My AGM battery is rated for a 1500amp draw for like 5-10 seconds.Never will get that with alead acid battery.Big plus is no more science projects growing the battery terminals with a AGM battery.

Interesting. This does not agree with what I have been told, read and have seen.

To what do you attribute the apparent rash of failures of the red-tops?

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:35 pm

LMWatBullRun wrote:

To what do you attribute the apparent rash of failures of the red-tops?

Who makes them now and where there made now using less then quality materials.

What you have been reading has been about Optima's made in the last 4-5 years,and Optima's only,since they were bought by Johnson Controls and now made in Mexico from junk lead and poor build quality(internal shorts).

dc3655 · **Joined:** Mon May 16, 2011 3:08 am **Posts:** 38

It seems like 6 years out of these Optimas is pretty good to me since they are cranking a diesel. But I have noticed that nobody wants to go with an Optima again for the second battery. Why is that? I'm tempted to go with a Motorcraft if they have one that will fit and has the CCA's. Mine is dying and I have to keep jumping it to get it started in the cold mornings.

Squeeto · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:16 pm

dirtmover wrote:

WolverineFW wrote:

http://www.polarbattery.com/

I think I paid around $230. I got quoted the same price at another place that looked into getting it. Might have found a better price if I really hunted around. Cheapest I could find an Odessey for was $310.

So, why would I buy one of these instead of say 3 Costco batteries which will cost a similar amount and come with a total of 9 years, 100% replacement warranty?

I couldn't find a battery for the Liberty CRD in Costco's cross-reference here in Canada.
Are you using the gasser battery?

dirtmover · **Posted:** Sun Jan 01, 2012 11:39 pm

Squeeto wrote:

dirtmover wrote:

WolverineFW wrote:

http://www.polarbattery.com/

I think I paid around $230. I got quoted the same price at another place that looked into getting it. Might have found a better price if I really hunted around. Cheapest I could find an Odessey for was $310.

So, why would I buy one of these instead of say 3 Costco batteries which will cost a similar amount and come with a total of 9 years, 100% replacement warranty?

I couldn't find a battery for the Liberty CRD in Costco's cross-reference here in Canada.
Are you using the gasser battery?

Ignore the cross reference and look at the specs. The Costco fitment 34 battery is 795 CCA and our CRD requires 800 CCA. I'm guessing the cross-reference is automatically generated and we miss it by 5 CCA :roll:

. I'm not going to loose any sleep over 0.6%.

mikey1273 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:13 am

dc3655 wrote:

It seems like 6 years out of these Optimas is pretty good to me since they are cranking a diesel. But I have noticed that nobody wants to go with an Optima again for the second battery. Why is that? I'm tempted to go with a Motorcraft if they have one that will fit and has the CCA's. Mine is dying and I have to keep jumping it to get it started in the cold mornings.

yeah for the reason tjkj2002 said they are now overpriced poor made Mexican junk. In this down economy many don't have nearly $200 for a car battery. the battery I got has 800 CCA and a better warranty than what the optima comes with. 36 month replacement and 72 month prorate or the optima with just 36 month prorate for nearly double $$$. I know the idea behind the optima is way better technology if the build it right. then what came in ours was a lesser than retail specs too.

mikey1273 · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:19 am

So, why would I buy one of these instead of say 3 Costco batteries which will cost a similar amount and come with a total of 9 years, 100% replacement warranty?[/quote]

I couldn't find a battery for the Liberty CRD in Costco's cross-reference here in Canada.
Are you using the gasser battery?[/quote]

Ignore the cross reference and look at the specs. The Costco fitment 34 battery is 795 CCA and our CRD requires 800 CCA. I'm guessing the cross-reference is automatically generated and we miss it by 5 CCA :roll:

. I'm not going to loose any sleep over 0.6%.[/quote]

If my memory is correct the stock optima was only rated at 700 or 750 CCA not 800 like the retail version so the Costco 795CCA should be fine for starting power.

Squeeto · **Posted:** Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:55 pm

Re: Costco batteries.

Thanks guys, I will see if the local Costco has these in stock.

GaryC · **Joined:** Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:59 pm **Posts:** 21

tjkj2002 wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

. I have heard that AGM batteries do not react well to high current, either flow or charge; it may be that this battery is not a good match for the load of cranking a diesel.

AGM batteries are designed for high amp loads and tend to last alot longer then lead acid batteries under the same high amps loads.AGM's are also very vibration resistant compared to a lead acid battery which makes a great choice for a oil burner.

I've been running diesels for years and this jeep is the only one I've ever seen that didn't come with a lead acid battery. The stock lead acid batteries in my 98 dodge diesel lasted 300,000 miles and 8 years before I had to replace them and that truck vibrates a lot more than the CRD, so I have a hard time believing that somehow lead acid batteries are a bad fit for a diesel and that we really need these "special" batteries. My 86 mercedes 300SDL made it just fine with a lead acid battery. Every farm tractor I've ever owned came with a lead acid battery also, and those vibrate a lot more and see a LOT more roughness than my jeep ever will.

It's just a small four cylinder diesel, there's nothing cosmic about it. There is, however, a lot of sketchy engineering on it like the goofy thermostat and dumb 8mm allen wrench oil drain plug. Both of these designs could have been made better and more servicable if the designers had just stuck to the old tried and true thermostat and drain plug designs that have been working for the better part of 100 years. I think that this Optima battery might be the same thing, a solution in search of a problem. Most likely Chrysler had an extra 10,000 or so of them sitting around and saw a chance to use them in the cobbled together CRD program. In any case, I have a hard time believing that they're somehow needed to make a diesel engine work properly when pretty much every other diesel engine on the planet works fine with standard old batteries.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:50 pm

Agree with above. I was running diesels a couple of decades ago before coming over to N.A. and finding that diesels were N/A. They always used lead acid batteries. I also use a lead acid battery in my boat which takes a heck of a lot more pounding and vibration than the CRD could ever give it even in an off road situation.

The vibration excuse is a red herring. I think they just wanted something that looked cool and different.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:04 pm

GaryC wrote:

tjkj2002 wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

. I have heard that AGM batteries do not react well to high current, either flow or charge; it may be that this battery is not a good match for the load of cranking a diesel.

AGM batteries are designed for high amp loads and tend to last alot longer then lead acid batteries under the same high amps loads.AGM's are also very vibration resistant compared to a lead acid battery which makes a great choice for a oil burner.

I've been running diesels for years and this jeep is the only one I've ever seen that didn't come with a lead acid battery. The stock lead acid batteries in my 98 dodge diesel lasted 300,000 miles and 8 years before I had to replace them and that truck vibrates a lot more than the CRD, so I have a hard time believing that somehow lead acid batteries are a bad fit for a diesel and that we really need these "special" batteries. My 86 mercedes 300SDL made it just fine with a lead acid battery. Every farm tractor I've ever owned came with a lead acid battery also, and those vibrate a lot more and see a LOT more roughness than my jeep ever will.

It's just a small four cylinder diesel, there's nothing cosmic about it. There is, however, a lot of sketchy engineering on it like the goofy thermostat and dumb 8mm allen wrench oil drain plug. Both of these designs could have been made better and more servicable if the designers had just stuck to the old tried and true thermostat and drain plug designs that have been working for the better part of 100 years. I think that this Optima battery might be the same thing, a solution in search of a problem. Most likely Chrysler had an extra 10,000 or so of them sitting around and saw a chance to use them in the cobbled together CRD program. In any case, I have a hard time believing that they're somehow needed to make a diesel engine work properly when pretty much every other diesel engine on the planet works fine with standard old batteries.

I did not state that a AGM battery must be used,just stated they are better suited as they can handle more vibs then a normal lead acid battery can.

As far as regular diesel pickups and big rigs that is a whole nother ball game and they are a frame on body design so the engine vibs are absorbed by the mortor mounts and body mounts so not that great of a effect placed on the battery.The KJ is a unibody so no body mounts to further dampen the engine vibs.Plus a 4 banger diesel has greater vibs then a 6 cylinder or 8 cylinder just be design.Oh and to mention that the pickups and big rigs will have 2-4 batteries also were as the CRD has one.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:11 pm

See http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq.htm

I did a search and found this, http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... ss_mat_agm
which corroborates what was said about AGMs being good at delivering high amperages and being vibration resistant. It appears I was wrong about high discharge being a problem. However, it also said this-

"As with all gelled and sealed units, AGM batteries are sensitive to overcharging. These batteries can be charged to 2.40V/cell (and higher) without problem; however, the float charge should be reduced to between 2.25 and 2.30V/cell (summer temperatures may require lower voltages). Automotive charging systems for flooded lead acid often have a fixed float voltage setting of 14.40V (2.40V/cell), and a direct replacement with a sealed unit could spell trouble by exposing the battery to undue overcharge on a long drive. See Charging Lead Acid.

AGM and other sealed batteries do not like heat and should be installed away from the engine compartment. Manufacturers recommend halting charge if the battery core reaches 49°C (120°F)."

Reading this, I suspect that the failures of the red tops are at least in part due to being overcharged and cooked.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:03 pm

LMWatBullRun wrote:

See http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq.htm

I did a search and found this, http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... ss_mat_agm
which corroborates what was said about AGMs being good at delivering high amperages and being vibration resistant. It appears I was wrong about high discharge being a problem. However, it also said this-

"As with all gelled and sealed units, AGM batteries are sensitive to overcharging. These batteries can be charged to 2.40V/cell (and higher) without problem; however, the float charge should be reduced to between 2.25 and 2.30V/cell (summer temperatures may require lower voltages). Automotive charging systems for flooded lead acid often have a fixed float voltage setting of 14.40V (2.40V/cell), and a direct replacement with a sealed unit could spell trouble by exposing the battery to undue overcharge on a long drive. See Charging Lead Acid.

AGM and other sealed batteries do not like heat and should be installed away from the engine compartment. Manufacturers recommend halting charge if the battery core reaches 49°C (120°F)."

Reading this, I suspect that the failures of the red tops are at least in part due to being overcharged and cooked.

Can't say about CRD's but early year KJ's have a battery temp sensor so no issues overcharging or charging when the battery is hot.That sensor feeds directly into the PCM which alos controls the alt output(voltage regulator).

When the stock battery finally goes out

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