Thought I could squeak by... (timing belt)

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:43 pm

So, having been out of full-time work for a year (& diminishing hours part-time w/several jobs)... I hoped I could squeak by on the timing belt until money was better / had more time / was more convenient for the fam / son got his own.

I made it to about 165k. :oops:

Now that I've seen the belt I'm not surprised. Even the new Gates belt isn't that impressive (but seems identical to the old one). For all of you who, like me, thought maybe... be encouraged not to! Once again.

I'm at the halfway point (timing belt covers off, engine cover off, rockers off).

Thought you all might be interested in some pics of how things look with the thing opened up. If you have any requests for a particular view or component just ask and I'll try to get a few shots for you as it goes back together.

Wish me luck!

Mark

jlgail4309 · **Posted:** Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:58 pm

Sorry to hear that Hope the rebuilt go's well. Thanks for the pic's

racertracer · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:17 am

Well that looks like a VM 2.8L ready to be reborn.

Make sure you clean the intake pretty good, get rid of that caked on goo with a good solvent.

Seeing the goo when I had mine done, made me realize that I needed the ELH mod from then on.

You did a number on that rocker, what other parts did you mess up?

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:17 am

racertracer wrote:

Well that looks like a VM 2.8L ready to be reborn.
You did a number on that rocker, what other parts did you mess up?

From what I can tell, just the rockers - but every one of 'em. It will be hard to be certain until I've cleaned off all that oil so the surfaces are visible. Quick inspection of the lifters and cams are encouraging.

EDIT - at least one of the lifters needs replacing. Anyone have spares?

I've kept the lifters in their own holes for now. Next step is to pull 'em out, give them a good rinse, and inspect for damage.

Looking down the row of valve stems - they all look true.

Mark

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:36 am

While I understand being f-in broke all the time - A NEW BELT IS $90!

Man, that is one trashed rocker. Good luck getting it all back together, read through my notes on re-timing the engine, its a bit of a buggar.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:42 am

Sir Sam wrote:

While I understand being f-in broke all the time - A NEW BELT IS $90!

Man, that is one trashed rocker. Good luck getting it all back together, read through my notes on re-timing the engine, its a bit of a buggar.

I hear you.. guess I never thought of it as a $90 job. More like $750, due to all the other things that would be done in the effort.

In retrospect, would've been better to waste the time (2X) and do the rest later! :juggle:

I'll be checking out your notes - I saw someone else mention them earlier (teeth between crank and fuel pump.. ? etc).

I'm all for not having to do it repeatedly (had that experience with an Acura).

Thx, Mark

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:57 am

Not to pile on and I hope the rebuild goes fine but just to remind folks. The Gates T336 timing belt right now is $72 with free shipping on Amazon. I know this may be heresy to some but the only "required" part for a TB job is the belt, assuming the bearings on the spinning things (idlers, tensioner, water pump, etc) are not 1) weeping grease or 2) loose (e.g. they should have very little play). Don't misunderstand me; replacing all that other stuff (total cost including TB is on the order of $500 if you shop carefully), including the water pump, while you are in there is definitely a good idea and now that I've stockpiled it all I'll probably do so when the time comes. But if funds are short skipping or stretching the TB change interval is playing with very expensive fire as opposed to just going in there and doing the minimum; of course check those bearings too.

FYI even taking it relatively slow the TB job, not including water pump, only takes 5-6 hours.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:41 pm

papaindigo wrote:

Not to pile on and I hope the rebuild goes fine but just to remind folks. The Gates T336 timing belt right now is $72 with free shipping on Amazon. I know this may be heresy to some but the only "required" part for a TB job is the belt...

FYI even taking it relatively slow the TB job, not including water pump, only takes 5-6 hours.

Thanks

And yes - Amazon is my source, where they carry the part. Good source for belts and hoses, bulbs...

The effort to 'pull the front off' had a significant intimidation factor. Now that I've done it (tear down, at least), the monster looks much smaller. :shock:

Mark

papaindigo · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:11 pm

Yep, once you have seen it or done it the TB monster is really quite tiny.

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:19 pm

msilbernagel wrote:

EDIT - at least one of the lifters needs replacing. Anyone have spares?

When you spend $46 for each new rocker you get new lifters. Thats the only way they come, new lifters come with the new rockers, you don't have a choice in the matter.

ebbnflow · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:10 pm

I'd like to see a pic of the intake. Is it very restricted from soot build up?

jlgail4309 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:22 pm

more pic's please . And good luck looks like you have a good handle on it.

tjkj2002 · **Posted:** Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:29 pm

papaindigo wrote:

I know this may be heresy to some but the only "required" part for a TB job is the belt,.

While that is true Murphy always shows his face soon after just doing the belt,even if everything else looked good.

I can't tell you how many waterpumps and hydrualic tensioners I've had to replace within 5k-20k of a timing belt change where the customer was to cheap to buy the whole kit,now they get to pay all that labor again when.There are some real nice kits out there that come complete with everything including the WP and hydrualic tensioner(if it uses one) for a good price(generally less then $200).

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:18 pm

I'll get some additional pics later this week - thanks everyone.

Mark

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:37 am

Some of you were asking for more pictures, and I imagine there's some interest in the passageways where oil/sludge/carbon build up.

Here are some pictures of the EGR input from the FCV, EGR air intake from the intercooler, intake ports on the head, and intake ports in the intake manifold (engine cover).

In my case, the SEGR has been installed since 30k miles (it's at 165k-ish now). Looks pretty good to me! No EHM yet, and it's had the stock hoses - all looked pretty decent.

In order, the pics are:

1) Looking down from the EGR into the tube that leads to the FCV/exhaust - down from pic #5
2) Looking down into intake port #1 on the head
3) Looking 'up' into the intake manifold (where it meets the head @ pic #2)
4) Intake air passageway into the EGR from the intercooler
5) Looking up into the EGR from the tube that leads to the FCV/exhaust (up from pic #1)

FYI - Mark
--

naturist · **Posted:** Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:46 pm

I dunno, but you "squeeked by" for 65,000 miles. That's a LOOOOOONG squeek, IMHO. I think you are out at least 2 standard deviations from the mean breaking point. (Which means, you got very, very, very lucky indeed that it went that much farther than the normal maintenance period.) While I understand being broke and all, this is a mighty expensive way to save a few bucks.

But I do hope the rebuild goes well. Don't forget to check the pistons and the rods for bending. There's a reason ALL the rockers broke, and it has to do with all the valves hitting the pistons. I know it is designed to break rockers and crush lifters in case of disaster, but it sure would be a shame to put all that work into it, only to have a rod let go down the road.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:12 pm

naturist wrote:

I dunno, but you "squeeked by" for 65,000 miles. That's a LOOOOOONG squeek, IMHO. I think you are out at least 2 standard deviations from the mean breaking point. (Which means, you got very, very, very lucky indeed that it went that much farther than the normal maintenance period.) While I understand being broke and all, this is a mighty expensive way to save a few bucks.

But I do hope the rebuild goes well. Don't forget to check the pistons and the rods for bending. There's a reason ALL the rockers broke, and it has to do with all the valves hitting the pistons. I know it is designed to break rockers and crush lifters in case of disaster, but it sure would be a shame to put all that work into it, only to have a rod let go down the road.

Yes.. no excuses; error in judgement! :dead:

Thx - Mark

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:08 am

Ok - so, I believe the lifters are damaged also. They LOOK ok, but didn't seem to have much travel when pressed. Not knowing what normal was, and needing to replace the one broken lifter, I ordered an OEM rocker-arm / lifter (come as a unit) to both replace the damaged on and have something with which to compare.

Not even close...

Extended height of the new lifter 1.368", depressed 1.268" - 0.1" travel
Extended height of the old lifter 1.335", depressed 1.328" - 0.007" travel

I'm guessing that the force required to fracture the rocker arm also crushed the spring inside. There's also clearly a design change as the old lifters had that crimp ring around the top, while the new ones use a 'c' clip (you can see looking down from above). I don't know how much difference is due to design change but the way I'm used to seeing hydraulic lifters work is using a spring dampened by pressurized oil - which the new one clearly seems built to do and the old one no longer seems capable of. :grim:

The old lifter above is the best (remaining travel) some don't move at all.

Fortunately, the same person offering the rocker arms sells lifters too (see 'for sale' forum). I ordered a set today.

FYI - Mark

naturist · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:26 pm

Good call on the lifters. Hope you get 'er back on the road soon.

SLS · **Posted:** Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:44 pm

tjkj2002 wrote:

papaindigo wrote:

I know this may be heresy to some but the only "required" part for a TB job is the belt,.

While that is true Murphy always shows his face soon after just doing the belt,even if everything else looked good.

I can't tell you how many waterpumps and hydrualic tensioners I've had to replace within 5k-20k of a timing belt change where the customer was to cheap to buy the whole kit,now they get to pay all that labor again when.There are some real nice kits out there that come complete with everything including the WP and hydrualic tensioner(if it uses one) for a good price(generally less then $200).

I would be real interested in you source of those good prices you mentioned.......

Thought I could squeak by... (timing belt)

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