Problems after timing belt change

turbobill · **Posted:** Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:15 pm

I replaced my timing belt and the test drive flunked big time. My Jeep has almost no power and is putting a huge amount of greyish smoke. Also idling rough. I used 6mm allen wrench to pin the flywheel and 6mm allen wrenches to check the alignment of both the cams and it looked to be OK. Before I put the cover on the timing belt I started the engine for about 30 sec to make sure nothing would move around on the timing belt. Nothing did and the engine seemed to idle OK.

On the test drive I started off and all seemed OK then after about 100 ft lost power and got the smoke.

I have checked the turbo hose I had off and it looks fie. I did a boost solenoid bypass with no help. I did something while working on my Jeep but I am at a loss as to where to start looking. I guess I could take the covers back off and verify the Timing Belt set up is OK but would like some input before I go that way.

If the fuel pump was out of time would it cause this type of problem? I witnessed marked the fuel pump and the alignment checked out after I set the tensioner the first time. I rotated the engine by hand and verified the witness marks lined up gain before I put the cover on.

Would appreciate any and all advice.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:45 pm

The high pressure pump (CP3) and gear has a timing mark that should line up at about the 7:00 to 8:00 position. I would check to make certain that these marks line up. These marks should line up when the crank is 90 degrees after top dead center, i.e. the 3:00 position. The Exhaust cam will line up at 9:00; the intake cam at 3:00 position.

I work in the diesel arena. Often times, when a pump is out of time, bad engine performance is the result. It only takes a little off to be a lot off.

Hope this helps.

Hoosier CRD

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:51 pm

If he witnessed marked the pump and checked it after the post install rotation I would think it would be ok. To check that pump alignment mark if I recall correctly your notes are correct but the pump alignment mark only comes around to the right location every 3rd turn of the engine.

Joe Romas · **Posted:** Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:15 pm

If your saying it ran fine for 100 feet then something happened I would immediatly go back to what I did last before things get worse. Definetly don't stat it untill you fnd something concrete. It could get expensive fast :banghead:

You may find something like the tensioner came loose and allowed the belt to slip :juggle:

turbobill · **Posted:** Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:58 pm

I rechecked alignment by inserting pin in flywheels alignment hole and verified that exhaust and intake cam's were aliigned using 6mm pin. Everything was aligned. If no better ideas come along I will pull the Tb cover again tomorrow to verify pumpp alignment with the timing marks. If the pump is off how do I aliggn it using the timing marks? Can I aliagn the marks when 90 dy from tech with flywhell and cam pis aliganed? I don 't think pump alignment is off but that is the only part not verified with stock timing marks

ChesterCRD · **Posted:** Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:59 pm

I had the tensioner slip on mine after the six turns of the engine to check alignment. I did tighten it to 30 N m, but it slipped quite a bit. Just FYI, it's something to check.

The second time I tensioned it I released tension and retensioned several times until I got a smooth turn to the point of where the wrench clicked. I'm guessing the threads just needed to be worked to get a good torque measurement.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:50 pm

I do not know if it matters but on at least 2 engines it appears the TB tensioner bolt came from the factory with heli-coil threads where it screws in instead of solid in the block threads.

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:41 pm

Papaindigo is correct about the helicoil, but those threads are NOT into the block. The tensioner screws into just the timing inner cover, a thin plate of aluminum!

Be careful in your torque measurements, but make sure the "window" on the tensioner spring is also showing in the right spot. Left of the wire, is too loose and could cause problems.

Take heart, you might only be a tooth off somewhere. I would REALLY suggest renting the proper pins from GDE, the use of allen keys on the cams is too flaky for me. The flywheel hole is not as critical, because that one MUST be in the right position if you can find the hole in the flywheel (tap around it to ensure you only have a SMALL hole - find those edges!) and the crankshaft bolt holes WILL be vertical / horizontal when it is correct. Then you can just visually use the bolt holes.

But the cams... If the pins are not snug into their holes, then you might have the cams a tooth off and not be able to know for certain. Too scary for me. If you were more than a tooth off on the timing however... You would already be looking for new rockers. Tear it down, do the timing again, reverify. You will get it.

turbobill · **Posted:** Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:51 pm

Well my mystery is solved. I pulled my jeep apart and checked alignment again. It appeared that my exhaust cam was off by one tooth and so I pull the timind belt and rotated the cam. At least one rocker is bent/broken. I can feel the valve spring tension on three locations but the fourth has NO resistance.

Have seen writeups on pullingg the cover. Looks pretty intimidating. I have the 2005 sshop manual.

Do I really need to disconnect and vent the A/C and do I need to pull the inside cover from the timing belt space? I may try to pull tomorrow so I can assess damage. Appreciate any tips on getting this cover and back on.

naturist · **Posted:** Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:50 pm

Ouch! But at least you found the problem, it's no longer a mystery.

I hope you find no more damage.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:09 pm

Glad that you found the problem.

Hoosier CRD

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:31 pm

turbobill wrote:

Have seen writeups on pullingg the cover...

Do I really need to disconnect and vent the A/C and do I need to pull the inside cover from the timing belt space? I may try to pull tomorrow so I can assess damage. Appreciate any tips on getting this cover and back on.

NO - no requirement to disconnect/vent the A/C. If I recall correctly, the text you read is speaking about cutting the wire ties that hold it down across the top of the radiator / fan shroud. If you look in the pictures I've posted this past week - you can see it held up and out of the way using a bungee cord.

YES - you probably need to pull the inside cover (I did). Though, you're welcome to try without doing so; the service manual calls for it.

If you want to try, there is a 10mm bolt front/center (inline w/injectors) that goes vertically down through the engine cover and into a tab that comes out the back from the rear timing cover.

What you may find is that the water hose/tube that comes up from somewhere near the EGR/FCV and across the top (that top 10mm bolt holds it down) seems impossible to get clear of the engine cover (to lift vertically) unless one of two things happens:

1) disconnect the tube at the hose junction about mid-way down the driver's side of the engine (hard to reach), so you can get it out of the way and lift the cover... or,

3) pull the rear timing cover forward enough to get that tube out of the way for lifting the engine cover.

Of course, anything messing with the timing gears means you probably want that tool from GDE..

Good luck - you've got my sympathy/support! :5SHOTS:

Mark

turbobill · **Posted:** Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:29 pm

I got the intake/cylinder head cover off today. Two days and about 16 hours. Lots of time spent staring at the FSM trying to understand what it was trying to tell me. Yes I pulled the cam gears and inside cover. Not sure there is any other way to get the intake back on if the inside cover is not taken off. When I finally got the cover off I found 2 broken rockers and 6 broken lifters, all on the intake side where the cam was one tooth off from alignment. The two lifters that did not break were on the positions where the rocker broke.The lifters were broken at the top as if the were cantilevered over. The ball on the end broke through the side of the lifter. The unbroken lifters appear to be in good shape, no signs of stress or deformation with my naked eye.

Has anyone else experienced this broken lifter phenomenon? I know the rockers are the designed weak point but since these lifters broke I am concerned about deeper damage. Please help me sort this out as I was not committed to an full up piston replacement when I dove into this mess. What do I need to check? What do I need to be concerned about? Other than Sir Sam who should I be talking to about this problem?

I appreciate any and all advice and thank each of you in advance for it.

Bill

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:47 pm

The rear TB cover must be removed for this job, theres no way to get the intake off or on with it in place.

Thats odd about the failure method in your rockers/lifters. Can you post some pictures of the failed parts?

On my engine when the rockers went all the lifters were fine except for one, the top piece that was crimped on separated from the main body.

At this point consider doing a leakdown or compression test via the injector hole on each cylinder. you can pressurize the cylinder(be careful because the engine will want to turn over, this is how I broke an allen wrench in the flywheel alignment hole) then lightly tap or push down on each valve and feel/listen for correct release. That ought to give you an idea of anything is wrong on the valve side. Otherwise at this point your only other real option is to get out a fiber optic camera and stick it down into the cylinder via the injector hole to look for damage.

Also, I kinda doubt you did damage to the pistons, I say throw in some new rockers and put it back together!

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:58 pm

Without removing the head, one of the best means to confirm the valves and pistons are still sealed is a compression test.

If you can lay a straight edge along the valve stems, and find they're all in alignment from front to rear on either side - and the same height - your valves are probably ok. I doubt you could poke a hole in the piston without valve damage.

I am surprised the rocker arms didn't fail as designed - mine all did when the belt lost teeth. Only one lifter was damaged (that ball on the top) leaned where it was crimped to the lower part.

You can purchase lifters-only from hurley-pugh (http://myworld.ebay.com/hurley-pugh/?_t ... 4340.l2559) - he has a set of 16 for sale but perhaps you could buy a single box of eight. You could also ask him if he has any lifters available separately. He's apparently located in the Portland OR area, perhaps a half-hour away from me. The box the parts came in are marked Eurocams (UK).

For the one lifter I needed, I just ordered a factory part from Factory Auto Parts (sales@factorychryslerparts.com):

Qty Product # Price EA
1 ROCKER ARM. Inlet and Exhaust Valve. 05066780AB $65.20
1 GASKET. Valve Cover. 05066786AA $59.00

Since I only needed one that way - it seems simple enough. Don't forget a new gasket for the cover.

I'm uncertain if we should order new copper o-rings for the injectors - but suspect so as any soft-metal crush part is typically one use only.

Mark

turbobill · **Posted:** Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:55 pm

Thanks Mark. My injector orings were shot and so I was going to replace the crush washers and orings.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:11 pm

TurboBill - Sorry you found problems like that!

On the lifters, I have no rockers to offer you... But I have a LOT of lifters that are probably in just-fine condition if you feel like snapping together the parts!

I'd need to confirm exactly what you needed from some pictures so I'm not sending you the wrong stuff, but if you want them, they are yours for the shipping. It would seem that my mechanic replaced the lifters AND the rockers (or they sell as a unit?) when he borked the timing job on replacing my engine and smashed every rocker arm. For some reason... I have a total of 40 broken rockers, many with lifters still attached. Sam could confirm that they can be replaced separately from the rocker itself, and I should be able to mail them out by the end of this week (I'm back in South Florida for a few days again) if not sooner. Just let me know how many you want.

turbobill · **Posted:** Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:25 pm

geordi, Thank you so much for the offer, I want to take you up on it. PM sent Bill

Sir Sam · **Posted:** Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:49 pm

You can mix and match rockers and lifters, they just snap together.

New rockers from jeep are sold only as a rocker and lifter, you cannot buy just one or the other, for about $46 a piece.

turbobill · **Posted:** Mon Jan 16, 2012 1:03 am

Thanks, Sam. I have rockers coming from one rebuild and lifters coming from another. Since my Exhaust side has 100K on it and all looks good, I don't feel compelled to go new if there is another option.

Problems after timing belt change

Who is online