Mann ProVent 200 CCV filter

dgeist · **Posted:** Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:54 pm

wenied wrote:

You shouldn't route it back to the engine! The filters collect water as well as oil.

I don't have a ProVent, but I do believe it can get water in the system, however if you take a look at the application guide at:
http://www.mann-hummel.com/industrialfi ... v_pid01=44
... you'll notice that the bottom fitting is identifed as an oil-return pipe.

Assuming that the bottom fitting contains water, I agree it should not be routed back to the engine, BUT the "return" from a filtering system shouldn't necessesarily contain water if it's implemented properly, which I think is where the problem may lie with many users.

Water is held in vapor at relatively low temperatures. The filter system's purpose is to filter out atomized oil, not steam/water vapor, granted it does contain a dessicant, but that probably gets spent relatively early in the life of the filter. Chances are that if the filtered air is leaving the chamber proper, it probably still contains the water vapor when it leaves. I'm guessing that since the provent has the outlet-to-air-intake towards the bottom side, that 90% of users end up having at least a slight upward slope to get the tubing to the air intake. If that path has a significant temperature difference, like with non-insulated tubing or PVC (and I'm guessing that using something like copper tubing inline would actually make this more significant), there's a good chance the water is simply condensing in the tube going to the intake and running back downstream to the ProVent.

I may be wrong, but think of it this way: If the water's coming out of the crankcase and getting trapped in the provent somehow, what would happen if you DIDN'T use the provent? It would go out the stock case-cover unit (admittedly along with some oil vapor) and go into the intake system (where trace amounts of water are common).

I'm not saying that I think anyone should connect a provent the way that most of the online examples show and then put the drainline back into the oil pan. I think that would be a bad idea. What I'm saying is that the design of OldNavy's filter (similar from a fluid-synamics perspective to the stock unit) is a better solution to the problem.

tired_old_dave · **Joined:** Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:45 pm **Posts:** 79

I should've used the provent when the edmunds forum was full of the issue early last year. 18k miles and one year of 0w40 has put a lot of oil throughout our intake system. I objected back then "why didn't DC" give us a provent. The factory ccv in theory would work, condensing oil to the sump in the valve cover/head and sending the water vapor and maybe a little oil vapor to the turbo. I object to the filter issue and draining the sump tube. My home made tubes collected only oil because it was letting all water vapor and some oil vapor get to the turbo. the factory ccv has apparently neither of the provent safety features and thus probably no filter in the top of the unit. I'll wait for dc to fix my jeep now or later. Or get an oldnavy ccv and clean our system - cac and hoses - one last time. I'll bet that the EPA,Jeep,DC,and VM are discussing this right now and if we are all lucky and nobody gets bought off - - -

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:41 am

I could see the EPA having an issue with something like a Provent that accumulates sludge and has to be drained, of course in an enviormentally friendly manor. Ran my provent drain goes into a bottle, could just as easliy run the drain tube (or unfiltered CV gases) into the frame and let leave it open. DC could call it passive rust proofing, probably upcharge for it. This is mostly water vapor (condenses yellow in the bottle), definately would not run it back into the pan.

GreggD · **Posted:** Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:02 pm

Hello,

I'm a new member to this forum. I've been reading some of the posts where other CRD owners are have trouble with the EGR valve. There have been a total of 4, including the one from the factory, on it since last June. The most recent replacement was January 2006. I have my service done at a Five Star dealer, & they've treated me right every time. The service advisor has told me that for some reason (I guess a design flaw) the diesel exhaust particulate is what causes the EGR valve to fail. The biggest problem with a failure is that the valve is a "restricted part" & has to be ordered each time. I would welcome any input about how to keep the valve from failing again.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:49 pm

RFCRD wrote:

I could see the EPA having an issue with something like a Provent that accumulates sludge and has to be drained, of course in an enviormentally friendly manor. Ran my provent drain goes into a bottle, could just as easliy run the drain tube (or unfiltered CV gases) into the frame and let leave it open. DC could call it passive rust proofing, probably upcharge for it. This is mostly water vapor (condenses yellow in the bottle), definately would not run it back into the pan.

One small problem. Provent/CCV is in between the air filter and suction side of the turbo - ie, a relative vacuum - and instead of draining out oil and water, you'd be sucking in air up the drain tube. Drain plug on mine developed a small leak bewteen the tubing and hose fitting a few weeks back, and with the engine running you could see air coming up the tube, frothing up the oil and water and blowing it back up inside the Provent.

Moral of the story - make sure all the connections on the drain tube are good and airtight, or all you're doing is condensing the oil before blowing it thru the CCV hose!

Checked the intercooler hoses a few days ago, 9300 miles, over 6000 since installing the Provent. No further accumulation of oil/crud from when I checked when I first installed it. Since hearing about the ether trick, I pulled both hoses off and used a couple spray cans of starting fluid to clean out all the crud that had accumulated prior to the Provent. Then flushed them out with water, dried them out, and reinstalled.

n3qik · **Posted:** Fri Apr 07, 2006 9:19 pm

On paper the ideal is when you turn off the engine for the night, it will allow the oil to seep back into the oil pan.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:46 pm

It's not ideal if it's 90% water. A little tough in bearings.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:41 am

So many are being deceived by the whole exhaust soot/EGR failure issue. Fuel quality is important but passing oil is likely more of a factor. In all the diesels I've owned over the years, I have never seen one that will cleanly burn motor oil. Motor oil usually passses straight through. Take my word for it, I've spent years scrubbing it off the back ends of buses. If it does burn makes excessive soot. Not the fine dry powder soot but the oily sticky type that coats and bakes onto everything downstream.

This is the kiss of death for all that sensitive and expensive exhaust hardware (EGR, VGT, and CAT). This is more of a timebomb than the all too common EGR failure. The next thing will be sticking the VGT or plugging your CAT. If you're lucky, it won't be a chunk of carbon/soot breaking loose hitting hitting your VGT blades. Ever see a video of a frozen turkey being shot into a jet engine? Will have about the same effect.

Better quality fuel, ULSD, or Biodiesel won't fix the problem if you don't get the air intake oil under control. You simply can't suck raw motor oil through an engine and expect positive results. Anyone owning diesel with a CCV needs to monitor and control this factor. Adding a Provent, Racor, Old Navy, or even a Homer D special is just common sense and essential if you want your CRD motor to stay together.

retmil46 · **Posted:** Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:37 pm

RFCRD wrote:

So many are being deceived by the whole exhaust soot/EGR failure issue. Fuel quality is important but passing oil is likely more of a factor. In all the diesels I've owned over the years, I have never seen one that will cleanly burn motor oil. Motor oil usually passses straight through. Take my word for it, I've spent years scrubbing it off the back ends of buses. If it does burn makes excessive soot. Not the fine dry powder soot but the oily sticky type that coats and bakes onto everything downstream.

This is the kiss of death for all that sensitive and expensive exhaust hardware (EGR, VGT, and CAT). This is more of a timebomb than the all too common EGR failure. The next thing will be sticking the VGT or plugging your CAT. If you're lucky, it won't be a chunk of carbon/soot breaking loose hitting hitting your VGT blades. Ever see a video of a frozen turkey being shot into a jet engine? Will have about the same effect.

Better quality fuel, ULSD, or Biodiesel won't fix the problem if you don't get the air intake oil under control. You simply can't suck raw motor oil through an engine and expect positive results. Anyone owning diesel with a CCV needs to monitor and control this factor. Adding a Provent, Racor, Old Navy, or even a Homer D special is just common sense and essential if you want your CRD motor to stay together.

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!!

n3qik · **Posted:** Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:48 pm

RFCRD wrote:

So many are being deceived by the whole exhaust soot/EGR failure issue. Fuel quality is important but passing oil is likely more of a factor. In all the diesels I've owned over the years, I have never seen one that will cleanly burn motor oil. Motor oil usually passses straight through. Take my word for it, I've spent years scrubbing it off the back ends of buses. If it does burn makes excessive soot. Not the fine dry powder soot but the oily sticky type that coats and bakes onto everything downstream.

This is the kiss of death for all that sensitive and expensive exhaust hardware (EGR, VGT, and CAT). This is more of a timebomb than the all too common EGR failure. The next thing will be sticking the VGT or plugging your CAT. If you're lucky, it won't be a chunk of carbon/soot breaking loose hitting hitting your VGT blades. Ever see a video of a frozen turkey being shot into a jet engine? Will have about the same effect.

Better quality fuel, ULSD, or Biodiesel won't fix the problem if you don't get the air intake oil under control. You simply can't suck raw motor oil through an engine and expect positive results. Anyone owning diesel with a CCV needs to monitor and control this factor. Adding a Provent, Racor, Old Navy, or even a Homer D special is just common sense and essential if you want your CRD motor to stay together.

This is only partly true in my case. I put a CCV filter on at about 1800 miles. My egr failed at about 5000 miles. I saw the old egr valve, it was a dry black soot buildup.

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:36 pm

I was talking to a friend who is a engineer that works at D/C back just a couple weeks after we bought the CRD and he said they were having high rate of EGR failures and they thought the cause was electronic failure from vibration, but that wasn't a for sure thing as yet. I told him I thought it was most likely cause by soot coating the valve and sensor and after enough time and soot build up the valve begain to operate with less efficiency and finally after enough time the valve fails and will no longer fully opens or closes. Some will fail in full open position, some partly open and some fully close, and depending in what position it fails will greatly effect engine performance. I think our's failed in the closed position as there seems to be no drop in mpg's and no heavy soot showing up in the exhaust.

RFCRD · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 11:01 am

Anyone notice, this thread has about 20 time the number of "views" as most other threads. Strong indication that this may be a broader problem than we realize. I wonder if anyone at Jeep/DC is reading this stuff?

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 1:19 pm

RFCRD wrote:

Anyone notice, this thread has about 20 time the number of "views" as most other threads. Strong indication that this may be a broader problem than we realize. I wonder if anyone at Jeep/DC is reading this stuff?

You bet your sweat bippie.

marauderer · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:15 pm

All right after all eleven pages of this thread. What is the consensus on what is going on with the CCV Filters. I sent Old navy a PM about what I should do. And then as he didn't respond immediately, he must have a real life also, I went back and read the thread. It is eveident I need to do something and am ready to buy the right piece of equipment. Is the group buy going down??

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:21 pm

marauderer wrote:

All right after all eleven pages of this thread. What is the consensus on what is going on with the CCV Filters. I sent Old navy a PM about what I should do. And then as he didn't respond immediately, he must have a real life also, I went back and read the thread. It is eveident I need to do something and am ready to buy the right piece of equipment. Is the group buy going down??

The Old Navy CCV is coming just be patient and you will like this CCV and you won't have a plumbing nightmare either. Hey since it's summer you can do the elephant hose mod until our CCV is ready. You will just have to put up with the oil dripping on the driveway and being blown all over the underside for a short while. If you do this be sure to pluge the end of the hose going to intake/IC.

dmv · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:25 pm

Old Navy,

Is it believed that this mod is needed for '06 build dates, or did DC address this issue in it's most recent production runs?

Also, do you belive the use of B100 helps prevent the oil build-up?

DMV

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:37 pm

dmv wrote:

Old Navy,

Is it believed that this mod is needed for '06 build dates, or did DC address this issue in it's most recent production runs? Not as yet they haven't.

Also, do you belive the use of B100 helps prevent the oil build-up? The oil is the problem, not the soot. The soot would blow on through if not for the oil making it gooy mess.

DMV

D/C is apperantly still comfused as to what is causing the problem. MB redisigned the intake on it's 5 cyl diesel in the Sprinter to cure the problem, they hope. The fix is so easy as to be unblieveable, just be patient and a simple fix will be here shortly. I hope to get the word from the head man to post a CAD drawing of the CCV here before too much longer.[/b]

marauderer · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:02 pm

So have you started a list of those wanting the new modern CCv filter that you are having made Old Navy?

oldnavy · **Posted:** Sun Apr 09, 2006 10:12 pm

Kind of, but the first run should be enough for all here. They were talking about 100 units for first run, but it could be more that wasn't cast in stone.

Man what's with all the bubble heads here? Do you guys know what an OM did for the boats? Yeah we kept you perapeep liberty going for you guys. Never will forget that boat that came into Norfolk with scope raised and bent back about 30*, often wondered where the skippers next duty station was after that.

marauderer · **Posted:** Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:43 am

oldnavy wrote:

Kind of, but the first run should be enough for all here. They were talking about 100 units for first run, but it could be more that wasn't cast in stone.

Man what's with all the bubble heads here? Do you guys know what an OM did for the boats? Yeah we kept you perapeep liberty going for you guys. Never will forget that boat that came into Norfolk with scope raised and bent back about 30*, often wondered where the skippers next duty station was after that.

It all depended on what the boat was doing at the time. If it was a spec op and the old man had a great package all is usually forgiven. if no package and discovered maybe retirement maybe handing out Tampons at the girls boot camp.

I will patiently wait for the availability of the 1st run.

Now hurry up

Mann ProVent 200 CCV filter

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