CRD transmission questions

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:19 pm

dirtmover wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

My intention is to do another drain and refill next weekend, by which time I will have the Tstat on hand and can replace that, too.

Do yourself a favour and get yourself a vacuum extractor. You can pull the fluid direct out of the dipstick tube instead of dropping the pan. I always suck first even if dropping the pan to remove the filters as it's a lot less messy this way.

I have a vac pump, may look at that. Does the vac get fluid that won't drip out? It looked to me as though the dipstick came straight into the pan. The reason I ask is that I added a drain plug to the pan, so I am wondering whether the vacuum will get anything the drain won't.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:28 pm

flman wrote:

I had my own fun using non ATF+4 fluid.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=61955

Yes, I remember reading that, and your travails were one of the reasons I suspected the wrong fluid was being used. Your post helped give me a leg up- thanks! I have never used ATF +4 before, and had no basis for comparison prior to this, but I was surprised at how different it feels compared to whatever goo was in the transmission previously.

audiboy86 · **Posted:** Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:53 pm

Yeah ATF 4 is rather intresting fluid I wish i could get a hold of whoever came up with it. Because they are making our transmission filter changes extremely exspensive.

dirtmover · **Posted:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:24 am

LMWatBullRun wrote:

dirtmover wrote:

LMWatBullRun wrote:

My intention is to do another drain and refill next weekend, by which time I will have the Tstat on hand and can replace that, too.

Do yourself a favour and get yourself a vacuum extractor. You can pull the fluid direct out of the dipstick tube instead of dropping the pan. I always suck first even if dropping the pan to remove the filters as it's a lot less messy this way.

I have a vac pump, may look at that. Does the vac get fluid that won't drip out? It looked to me as though the dipstick came straight into the pan. The reason I ask is that I added a drain plug to the pan, so I am wondering whether the vacuum will get anything the drain won't.

Oops, I missed your comment about the drain plug. You're correct, the dipstick goes straight into the pan so the suction tube will be sucking from the bottom of the pan. It won't get any more out than removing your drain plug.

For my sins I have another Chrysler vehicle that only hold about half its fluid in the pan. The FSM procudure for changing the fluid on this transmission is to drain and fill twice. They only suggest a short run in between to mix the fluids. In your case if you're able to drain 75% I think I would aim for another 2 drain/fills which will leave about 1.5% of the mystery fluid which probably won't do any harm.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:52 pm

Right now I'm leaving about 5/14 of the old fluid, so I will have about 4 to 5 % old fluid left after three total changes. I'd love to know which screw or bolt to remove to get all the old stuff out. I'd also love to have the idiot who put the wrong fluid delivered into my hands, but that is less likely. I suppose if this is the extent of my troubles, I'm in good shape.

papaindigo · **Posted:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:48 pm

If that's all you have to deal with on any vehicle be happy. FYI the only way to get rid of essentially 100% of incorrect tranny fluid is to either drop the tranny and TC (not worth the bother) or to do a tranny flush. There are places that can do the latter or there are some DIY methods, don't know what DIY would work for our vehicle, that involve disconnecting tranny cooler line and pouring in clean fluid as fast as the tranny pumps the old fluid out the disconnected line (works best if fluid color is different). I've never tried either approach.

flman · **Posted:** Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:27 pm

papaindigo wrote:

If that's all you have to deal with on any vehicle be happy. FYI the only way to get rid of essentially 100% of incorrect tranny fluid is to either drop the tranny and TC (not worth the bother) or to do a tranny flush. There are places that can do the latter or there are some DIY methods, don't know what DIY would work for our vehicle, that involve disconnecting tranny cooler line and pouring in clean fluid as fast as the tranny pumps the old fluid out the disconnected line (works best if fluid color is different). I've never tried either approach.

I started mine with the pan and filters off for a few seconds, and managed to get some out by going through the gears. I did not have to do multiple drains to get rid of the bad affect the Amsoil caused me. It will take a couple of months with or without drains until the tranny starts to act normal again.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:42 am

FLMan:

I thought about doing that, and I thought about trying the disconnection of the cooler hose, too, and flushing by using the transmission pump. Both of those might work, but I don't know enough to evaluate the potential downside of either of those methods, so I decided to do this the slow, conservative way. It might take a little longer, and might cost a little more in fluid, but will hopefully end up at the right place. Still getting the clunk when driving it, according to the primary pilot, DW. My hope is that the next replacement cycle will make still more difference.

Now I have to look into quick-learn procedures for the transmission. Suggestions, anybody?

BlackSkyRacing · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:54 am

LMWatBullRun wrote:

FLMan:

I thought about doing that, and I thought about trying the disconnection of the cooler hose, too, and flushing by using the transmission pump. Both of those might work, but I don't know enough to evaluate the potential downside of either of those methods, so I decided to do this the slow, conservative way. It might take a little longer, and might cost a little more in fluid, but will hopefully end up at the right place. Still getting the clunk when driving it, according to the primary pilot, DW. My hope is that the next replacement cycle will make still more difference.

Now I have to look into quick-learn procedures for the transmission. Suggestions, anybody?

I haven't had to rebuild any 545RFE transmissions yet, but if their quick learn is anything like the 42LE it's jack the drive axle off the ground and block it up. Then accelerate 0-50, coast to 35, then lightly apply brake to force a downshift. Repeat at least 75-80 times. OR spend two minutes with my Snap-On Solus Pro and be done with it... Which means a trip to any actual shop, not a shade tree mechanic, should find a scan tool big enough to perform a quick learn that shouldn't cost more than $20.

BTW transmission "flushes" with a machine are a joke. Most don't even involve dropping the pan and simply hook into your cooler lines. Take out what is pumped to the cooler and add through the return. This seems like sound logic till you take into account that the return lubricates the transmission gear train then simply drains back to the pan and mingles with the old fluid before being pumped back to the cooler. By simply "exchanging" the exact full fill amount you still end up with old fluid in your trans and you still have your old filter! :banghead:

When I service transmissions at the shop I drop the pan, and then loosen the valve body (just enough to drain, too much and you can disturb the checkballs in the case!). This drains all of the fluid from the system except what is in the lower half of the TC. Then I take off the cooler lines and use a solvent flush pushed through the return line to "back flush" the cooler(s) and air dry them to remove any contaminants.

Something to check while you're under there is the speed sensors. They are magnetic and tend to get covered like the pan magnet. Problem is that makes it hard for them to produce the proper signal as it always senses metal near-by and doesn't pick up the gaps in the tone ring as strong as it should. Most of the time the sensors aren't bad, just dirty or have a bad connection (chrysler has issues with their pins spreading in their connectors).

As for the transmission... There is a center support/piston assembly that had issues with a tapered snap ring popping out. This would cause a clunk and abnormal CVIs in a couple clutches (can't remember which). Nice part is that this snap ring can be seen by dropping the valve body completely. Only reason I know this without building one is from installing several Trans-Go Shift Kits. I can post up some of the instructions for better illustration of what I'm talking about if need be

papaindigo · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:34 am

As far as I can tell from the FSM the quick learn requires a dealer or equivalent scan tool or lots of driving while the tranny slowly learns.

BlackSkyRacing · **Posted:** Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:06 pm

papaindigo wrote:

As far as I can tell from the FSM the quick learn requires a dealer or equivalent scan tool or lots of driving while the tranny slowly learns.

As mentioned above, a Snap-On Solus Pro or higher can perform a quick learn. So can an OTC Genisis series scanner. Like I said, any real shop should have a scanner large enough to do this. Most shade tree mechanics have a glorified code reader with basic live data...

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:49 am

BlackSkyRacing wrote:

<snip>
When I service transmissions at the shop I drop the pan, and then loosen the valve body (just enough to drain, too much and you can disturb the checkballs in the case!). This drains all of the fluid from the system except what is in the lower half of the TC. Then I take off the cooler lines and use a solvent flush pushed through the return line to "back flush" the cooler(s) and air dry them to remove any contaminants.

Stan, I am deeply grateful for your information. Many thanks! Please, some further information on the location of the valve body, and also what solvents you use that are compatible with ATF +4 would be most welcome.

BlackSkyRacing wrote:

Something to check while you're under there is the speed sensors. They are magnetic and tend to get covered like the pan magnet. Problem is that makes it hard for them to produce the proper signal as it always senses metal near-by and doesn't pick up the gaps in the tone ring as strong as it should. Most of the time the sensors aren't bad, just dirty or have a bad connection (chrysler has issues with their pins spreading in their connectors).

A photograph or a pointer to the tech manual diagram showing these would be very helpful.

BlackSkyRacing wrote:

As for the transmission... There is a center support/piston assembly that had issues with a tapered snap ring popping out. This would cause a clunk and abnormal CVIs in a couple clutches (can't remember which). Nice part is that this snap ring can be seen by dropping the valve body completely. Only reason I know this without building one is from installing several Trans-Go Shift Kits. I can post up some of the instructions for better illustration of what I'm talking about if need be

I would be MOST interested in this information, Stan, thanks again!

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:52 am

BlackSkyRacing wrote:

papaindigo wrote:

As far as I can tell from the FSM the quick learn requires a dealer or equivalent scan tool or lots of driving while the tranny slowly learns.

As mentioned above, a Snap-On Solus Pro or higher can perform a quick learn. So can an OTC Genisis series scanner. Like I said, any real shop should have a scanner large enough to do this. Most shade tree mechanics have a glorified code reader with basic live data...

I think I will ask around and see what shops in my area have the requisite tool, and what they charge. I want to get at least one more flush done before I do this, but it is a good solid suggestion. Yet another thank-you!

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:02 pm

Further update:

Did another drain, getting about 7 quarts this time, perhaps a bit less, and I estimate that the CRD presently has about 1/4 old fluid left. Drove it for about an hour and a half this morning and used OD after the first 25 miles after I got onto the expressway. It worked much better, with only 3 clunks in the next 40 miles, and noticeable improvement in the downshift to 4th gear operation, which had been very troublesome. I am going to do one more drain/refill tonight and call it good. That should get me to ten percent old fluid.

If the clunk persists after that then I will undertake further investigations. Will advise.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:46 pm

Oooohkay.

So I have drained and refilled the transmission three times, and my best guess at this point is that there is less than 10% old fluid in the transmission. (Anyone need ~4 gallons of atf +4/??? ATF mix for a science experiment or something? It is synthetic so I cannot burn it in my Listeroid...) I have driven this vehicle a bit over 300 miles the last two days, and have the following to report.

Once well warmed up, from a standing start, having twice pressed the OD button to ensure that the OD is disengaged (OD off, OD back on; more later on that), so that the overdrive is available, when accelerated slowly and gently, the Jeep will move smoothly through all 5 gears. It shifts smoothly from 3rd into 4th gear, holds that until right around 56 MPH then into top gear. At 60 mph indicated it is turning about 1750 RPM.

When accelerated from a standing start somewhat harder, the transmission functions smoothly, although there is a bit of a lag between 4th dropping and 5th picking up; the revs rise a bit when accelerating harder. 3rd to 4th is timed properly with a good handoff.

When running at 60 MPH, if the OD off button is pressed, the transmission smoothly downshifts to 3rd and the revs rise to about 2700 rpm. No clunk, no bang, no fuss, no bother. If the OD off button is pressed again, the transmission shifts smoothly back to 4th briefly then to 5th. So far so good.

Now, here are the problems.

1) When running in 5th (overdrive) at 60 mph or so and a hill is encountered, or the throttle is depressed slightly, the transmission drops out of 5th and proceeds to hunt for a gear but seemingly cannot find one. If the throttle is not immediately released slightly, the RPMs waver between about 2200 and 2500, there is a loud clunk, and the revs rise to indicate 3rd gear (at 60 mph right around 2700.) If I have not done this twice before since last starting the Jeep, once the throttle is backed off slightly, the transmission smoothly shifts to 4th then almost instantly to 5th. If I do this three times then the transmission is locked out of overdrive, so I have to pull over, shut down and restart the Jeep to get OD back. Often, about half the time or so, this throws a P0700 code.

2) When slowing down from highway speed, then accelerating again, such as after decelerating on an exit ramp, and starting to accelerate to merge, I have gotten the same sort of 'hunting for a gear' behavior followed by the same sort of clunk. Not always, but perhaps 1 in 5 times. On those occasions when I get the clunk this almost always throws a code. It almost seems as though the overdrive is stuck, and I tested this hypothesis by slowing down to about 25 or 30 mph, and then hitting the OD off button, at which time there was a slight but perceptible clunk and a rise in engine rpm.

3) If instead of waiting for the transmission to properly downshift, I use the OD off button, there is never a bang or a clunk, and the transmission smoothly shifts out of OD at whatever speed, and runs very smoothly.

Now one of the local dealers has told us that the TC was replaced, but the operation of the transmission indicates that it was not reflashed, so I take that with a grain of salt.

My theories as to possible causes for these issues are:
-The transmission needs to unlearn bad behaviors picked up while running with the wrong fluid. I place little weight on this theory since the odds are that somebody put a new filter in the transmission not long before I got it, and they probably did that after some investigation into some sort of problem.

- Either the pump or the TC are bad, and the transmission is not getting enough pressure to hold 4th or 5th under load. It would be surprising that the Euro TC would go bad in less than 80K miles, but it is possible that the dealer lied, too, and maybe this vehicle never got the new one.OTOH, it is possible that the PO prevailed on whatever dealer he was dealing with to not do the reflash of the transmission when the TC was done. I simply do not know.

- it is possible that I actually do have a bad TCM/bad TCM wiring, but probably not the solenoid, given the smooth operation when the OD off button is employed. I do not know whether the OD off button uses the same solenoids, but I would assume so.

- it is possible that the snap ring is broken/missing as Stan suggested, or that the speed sensors are misbehaving.

I am seeking suggestions about next steps and how to proceed from here. Absent suggestions otherwise, I think I am going to go the 'quicklearn' procedure simply to rule that out, even though I do not expect it to work.
After that I am going to look under the valve body to see whether the snap ring issue Stan mentioned is the problem. After that I am not sure what to do next.

Thoughts and suggestions welcomed.

BlackSkyRacing · **Posted:** Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:09 pm

Sorry for the delay gentlemen, been crazy busy at the shop...

Speed Sensor locations

CVI index, gear ratios, and one of the problem snap ring locations (the real problem ring is in the underdrive input clutch)

Torque specs for the entire trans and fastener identification

Electrical apply chart...

There are some more useful images, but they're mostly for those looking to rebuild the transmission.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:53 am

Ok. Took the transmission (with Jeep attached) to a local transmission shop. Very nice chap. He had a SnapOn Solus reader. He took some initial readings, quick learned the transmission, then went for about a 10 mile test drive where he replicated the symptoms described above exactly, after the quick learn. Interestingly, I noted a very slight TC shudder which I had NOT ever experienced, at the 2 to 2' and again going into 4th. overall, the transmission seems to work a bit better, with the clunk not nearly as pronounced, but still there.

He told me that the OD clutches were showing significant wear and that he was very surprised to see this on a vehicle with only 80,000 miles. He said that usually the 545RFE was good for 300,000 miles or more of hard service, but that the OD clutches were worn.
He also said that if I babied it I could probably run it a long time without repairs, but that is not an option as far as I am concerned. I intend on towing and long trips with this Jeep. He also said that the speed sensors were reporting correctly; this agreed with my observation regarding the small amount of ferrous material I found on the pan magnet, and I saw the speed sensor output while we drove.

(He also told me the reader was showing a fault in the number one injector, but that given how well it was running that it might be just a wiring issue. Will check on that tonight.)

So given this, I am considering the following options:

a) -buy a junkyard transmission and install it; ($600 plus a day)

b)- do a) and take the old transmission for a rebuild with a new TC, etc.;

c)- just have the old transmission rebuilt with new TC, new pump, etc; ($2500 to $2800)

d)- drop the pan (again) and remove the valve body and look at the snap rings to see whether they are TARFUd.

Thoughts and recommendations are welcomed.

BlackSkyRacing · **Posted:** Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:44 pm

You could check on his price and policy on "bench" jobs as well as wait time. You can save a good chunk of money not having the transmission R&R'd by the trans shop. As long as there are no surprises a good shop should be able to have a bench job turned around in a day as long as they pre-order the normal parts required for a rebuild. I do a lot of bench jobs for people, but my warantee triples when I do the R&R so I know that the cooler gets properly flushed and that there are no cooler line leaks. Just so you have an idea of what to expect.

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:16 pm

I really loathe letting other people who may or may not be competent work on my vehicles. The problem is that I just don't have enough hours in the day. Option b) is what I was leaning towards, as it saves a lot of time for me and maybe some bucks, while at the same time allowing me to keep an eye on things and avoid wiring chafing, etc.

Stan, how likely is it based on what I described that what I was told is correct? If so, then in order to get at the worn clutches I would have to disassemble the transmission anyhow, right?

Also, would a Transgo kit add any value to such a rebuild?

BlackSkyRacing · **Posted:** Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:04 pm

Haha, I completely understand your feelings on allowing others to work on your vehicle... Yes you will need to tear the transmission down to replace the OD clutches. He probably looked at the CVIs and saw something on the high side either in the OD input clutch, or brake clutch values to conclude that they are worn. Depending on which set of OD clutches is worn would decide whether special tools are needed to replace the worn clutches. The inputs are just under the front pump, in the input clutch hub and requires few tools. The brake clutches are under the center support and require a special press arbor to remove and install the snap ring that retains it (the same one that is visible under the VB).

The Trans-Go kit isn't terribly expensive, and it includes a few parts that can help your trans live as long as your engine.

CRD transmission questions

Who is online