in hose thermostat -(no housing)

racertracer · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:33 am

Thanks Papa, great info.

arengant · **Posted:** Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:53 pm

papaindigo wrote:

Quiksilver - good to know. FYI 4mm converts to right about 5/32"

mtgstuber - you need to PM or email kap although he may respond here as I did email him asking that he check my tstat function post for accuracy. He is settled in in Alice Springs, Australia and finally got all his stuff, lathe/tstat parts/other personal property, a week or so ago but how soon he will be able to crank out the backlog and whether he is willing to take on new orders I don't have a clue. I'm on his backlog list near the top having swapped places with my son, stoutdog, who as a starving grad student in Tempe, AZ needed a good tstat more than I did.

I always wondered who stoutdog's dad was he always refers too LOL

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:55 pm

Rock Auto very nicely sent us the correct thermostat, and someone with big thumbs definitely checked the box to make sure it was the right one. Everyone makes a mistake once in a while and they were very nice to deal with and took care of things promptly.

I put the 13519 Stant in today after drilling a 9/64 hole at the rim and it works like a champ; no spikes, no fuss, no bother. I kept the tube end inside the attachment tube from the old Tstat. I also flushed the cooling system, and figured it looked good after 7 flushes; the water was almost as clear as the distilled water I put in, and I calculated that I had about 0.1% of the old non-spec coolant left before I drained it to put the Zerex in. Temperatures are holding half a tick to the left of 12:00 as long as I am running highway speeds. At lower output, the cabin heater is enough to cool the fluid somewhat, down a couple of ticks. If I leave it idling, it will cool down to just over 1/4, (that is with the heater running; I have been doing that a lot today with all the flushing.

jlgail4309 · **Posted:** Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:00 am

I bought 180 inline today. Has anyone had any overheating . Plan on taking out this summer in the heat for pulling a trailer. Should I drill a small hole. I read other have with the 192. I felt safer with 180. I seen were some one was redoing the stock thermostat. Is he back in up and running yet.

geordi · **Posted:** Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:11 am

Not sure who was redoing the stock thermostat... But I've got mine in.

Since I still had the stock spring clamp on the hose, I found that I had a handy clamp ready-made for a job - holding that thermostat in the hose. I drilled my 13519 thermostat (192 degree, according to the O'Reilly computer) with a 3/32" hole. I didn't want to go much larger to start with, just a little to allow the pressure to move.

Tapped it into the hole with a long socket-driver, MAN that thing took a bit of coaxing to get into the hose. I can see where Hoosier would have thought it wouldn't move. I pushed it into the hose *just enough* so that when I reinstalled the hose onto the stock thermostat nozzle... I heard and felt the in-hose thermostat contact the aluminum housing. Perfect, it couldn't be closer to the engine. Clamped down with the spring clamp, I'm sure it will stay right where I set it.

Operations.... It was a little cool today, but it was 80 yesterday here in Savannah. Both days, the temp needle rose to *just slightly shy* of dead-vertical, and nothing more. Perfect. It is almost "resting" on the left-hand edge of the top indicator, and that is where it sat all day, even when idling with the heat on full blast in a 50 degree rainstorm tonight.

Full disclosure: I do not have any engine cooling fan, I am ONLY running the electric fan, as controlled by the computer. If / when I see a need to install the cooling fan again (as evidenced by a reduction in AC performance LONG before my engine shows me any heat gain) then I will be installing the Hayden clutch and the plastic 3.7L fan. Last summer, I went through just about all summer WITHOUT a cooling fan, and it was brutally hot much of that time. I was not towing during the summer, and I don't plan to tow this summer either. During the summer, even with a weak stock thermostat and no cooling fan, the temperature gauge only got to vertical. Never higher.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:30 am

papaindigo wrote:

Ok I'll try to sketch out the OEM tstat function although readers might want to look at pages 1 and 10 of kap's comments at viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50940 for some good pictures and commentary on internal function. Keep in mind that our tstat functions upside down in the sense that it is the opening of the tstat that closes off the bypass port.

The tstat has 4 outflows and 1 inflow. The inflow is the rectangular hole in the head where the tstat bolts on and ALL coolant passing thru the tstat comes thru there from the engine block. Once coolant enters the body of the tstat the ports in the middle of the tstat body direct coolant flow, regardless of tstat position, thru 1) the large plastic port to the viscous heater and then to the heater core (before you ask yes per the FSM coolant circulates thru the heater core all the time) and 2) the small port that is both the coolant overflow and de-gas (constant air bleed) port to the plastic tank on the firewall. When the engine is cold and the tstat is closed (see the above upside down comment) a large portion of the coolant is directly circulated out the bottom aluminum port to the water pump inlet and then forced by the water pump thru the block and a small portion thru the large front facing port to the radiator. As the coolant going thru the water pump directly to the engine warms up the tstat opens to reduce and eventually close off the flow thru the bypass port so that all the flow now goes thru the 2 middle ports and the front facing port to the radiator.

As you can see if the tstat fails open or by opening too early, as ours typically does, coolant flow is directed away from the bypass port and to the radiator too early and is constantly over cooled hence the engine never fully warms up. In my experience during the summer a failing but not failed tstat can be masked by higher ambient temperatures and AC load.

On a cold engine an in line tstat will restrict the flow of coolant out that front facing port to the radiator until the in line tstat opens. This would have a tendency to increase the temperature within the block and tstat housing quicker at least until the bypass is closed or partially closed. However, as noted above with a properly functioning OEM tstat on a cold engine some flow is already directed thru that front facing port therefore IMHO if you are going to use an in line tstat it's important to do two things: 1) provide a flow path thru the skirt of the in line tstat to mimic that OEM flow, ensure the inline warms up from that flow, and to prevent temperature spikes and 2) to place the temperature sensitive portion of the in line tstat as close as physically possible to the OEM front facing port and make sure it stays there. The obvious potential problem with an in line is the balance between flow provided to the bypass port and flow to the radiator as too little flow to the radiator too late in the warm up cycle could result in overheating/temp spikes. Keeping in mind that the temp gauge sensor is on the OEM tstat housing I'd think excessive temperature should be virtually instantly visible and I'd also venture that if you experience warm-up temps going more than 1 tick above vertical that the hole in the skirt of your in line needs to be larger and I'd speculate that those using an in line in really hot areas like Tempe, AZ might need a bigger hole in the tstat skirt.

As for me and stoutdog; I'm running a replacement OEM pending receipt one of Kap's upgrades and stoutdog is running a Kap upgrade based on my old failed opening early core.

I think you summed it up well

Mainly you NEED to have some flow to an inline thermostat to get it to open in a correct manner. The hole is a good idea, though in a winter climate it may prevent you from reaching operating temp. On squeeto's thermostat, first one i had sent out, there was a slight flow around a gasket, I have since redesigned and perfected the unit to prevent this, but with that slight flow around the thermostat he never reached operating temp idling in the driveway. I suspect with an inline it would have similar results depending on hole size and ambient temps. If there is no hole, you would have to rely on convection to heat the whole hose and could be way too warm before the thermostat even opened as earlier stated.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:46 am

papaindigo wrote:

Quiksilver - good to know. FYI 4mm converts to right about 5/32"

mtgstuber - you need to PM or email kap although he may respond here as I did email him asking that he check my tstat function post for accuracy. He is settled in in Alice Springs, Australia and finally got all his stuff, lathe/tstat parts/other personal property, a week or so ago but how soon he will be able to crank out the backlog and whether he is willing to take on new orders I don't have a clue. I'm on his backlog list near the top having swapped places with my son, stoutdog, who as a starving grad student in Tempe, AZ needed a good tstat more than I did.

First priority is to get setup here. We're finally about all settled in, i fit my lathe, 3 large shelves, 3 large tool boxes, engine hoist and more all in my 1 car garage, got the car in too so the wife's happy.

I need to make a bench to sit the lathe on and decided to go metal and make a proper one that will have a bay for chips to fall I can clean out. Secondarily after that I need to catch up on the cores I have. I have about 27 I think. Once those are done I'll go from there and decide if shipping costs etc is worth it all to keep this going.

P.S. I have only seen a couple CRD jeep liberties here. Not as common as I expected. Everything here has a diesel option it seems, we ended up getting a Holden Cruze 1.5L petrol DOHC that gets about 45mpg hwy equivelent. Around town it is rated at 30, but we average 22mpg mainly because I start it up, let it warm up, drive a 1.6mile trip and shut it off, same thing on the way home. lol Poor lil car, hardly worth the drive.

- Mark

CATCRD · **Posted:** Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:50 am

Guys, the Stant 13519 HAS hole in it already. It's in the poppet, and appears to be something like 1/32 or smaller. I did not drill anything else, and it's running fine in one of my CRDs. On the other I drilled the existing hole out to 1/16". Only difference is the gauge drops more when idling.

yes · **Joined:** Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:32 pm **Posts:** 28

if i remember correctly stant does not make this item it is reboxed by stant, actually made in france, what i am getting at there may be a few differences in this item, ive seen some with dangling rivet others not but a very small hole in the plunger, as an update my 180 degree stant with 1/8 hole doing great with only little bit colder on longer idling, i still feel 180 is better insurance.
can this be made a sticky since this has taken off?

LMWatBullRun · **Posted:** Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:49 pm

CATCRD wrote:

Guys, the Stant 13519 HAS hole in it already. It's in the poppet, and appears to be something like 1/32 or smaller. I did not drill anything else, and it's running fine in one of my CRDs. On the other I drilled the existing hole out to 1/16". Only difference is the gauge drops more when idling.

Well, my old eyes must have missed it, but I had rather run cool than risk an overheat spike, so I drilled mine.
Our CRD has been through a lot already. When idling in cold weather, it will not heat past 1/4; this is an improvement over the previous situation where it would barely move off the peg at idle

I may go ahead and get a replacement now just to have a spare on hand, and will look at that one to be sure.

What is really needed is a replacement part for the factory stat that allows replacement fail-OPEN tstats to be used. Do the stats that Kapalczynski uses fail open or closed?
(edit to correct mis-spelled moniker)

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:51 am

LMWatBullRun wrote:

What is really needed is a replacement part for the factory stat that allows replacement fail-OPEN tstats to be used. Do the stats that Kal uses fail open or closed?

Not sure if this was directed to me with a mistype, but happy to address. The housing I make does just this, it allows a easy replacement of a $10 thermostat and it will fit the failsafe thermostat should you desire ($13 instead of $10) though the failsafe is only available in the 190ºF and not the 180ºF thermostat that fits my housing.

Also, i feel it important to share what I know about "failsafe"

First off, here's what makes a thermostat fail:

A) the spring fatigues allowing it to open too early
B) the piston wears and the wax pellet that expands leaks wax out and allows it to fail closed.

Both of these things can happen with a failsafe thermostat.

Failsafe thermostats have a bracket that catches the thermostat when it opens too far which keeps it locked open (this ONLY happens when your vehicle has already overheated due to something other than the thermostat causing it). In another words a failsafe thermostat can fail open or closed just like any other thermostat, but if your vehicle overheats for another reason (blocked radiator, bad fan or fan clutch, waterpump, etc) it will get hot enough to extend the thermostat piston out and lock the thermostat open. This doesn't prevent overheating though, if you have reached high enough temp to lock the tstat you have already overheated.

So the important thing to remember is that failsafe can fail open or closed just like any thermostat and does not prevent overheating if it fails closed.

Thankfully the CRD has a computer that will safe the engine from overheating. At 225º it starts to cut fuel to prevent overheating, at 239º it turns off the AC in the vehicle to further prevent overheating, at 243º full fuel cut off. After all this (for what reason i dont know) at 244º cluster chime tells you you have overheated. ;P

racertracer · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:18 am

kapalczynski wrote:

Thankfully the CRD has a computer that will save the engine from overheating.

It didn't work on mine when I experienced my cylinder head gasket failure.

kapalczynski wrote:

At 225º it starts to cut fuel to prevent overheating

If the ECU performed this task, I didn't experience it while driving on the interstate at 75 MPH.

kapalczynski wrote:

at 239º it turns off the AC in the vehicle to further prevent overheating

It didn't happen this way.

kapalczynski wrote:

243º full fuel cut off.

This didn’t occur.

kapalczynski wrote:

After all this (for what reason i don’t know) at 244º cluster chime tells you have overheated. ;P

This did occur and the weird thing is, the temperature gauge was not in the red at this point in time.

The temperature gauge only spiked once before, with no chimes and the needle quickly repositioned itself back to its normal position just left of center.

I recall reading about another member experiencing this same situation (maybe 2 1/2 years ago), he asked if anyone else had experienced it with no replies.

He also was concerned about the temps spikes and mentioned that he didn't think the temperature gauge on the dash worked correctly because his hand held infra-red temp gauge was reading dangerously high temps when pointing at the block compared to what the temp guage on the dash was reading.

I just tried to find the posting using the search feature of this forum and gave up because the search tool stinks. If someone can find it and post the link to it here ..... great.

I am wondering if a separate temperature sensor exists on the block or somewhere else on the engine that drives the ECU indicating different temps than what the dash gauge is reporting!

Could it have been trapped air pockets?

Hence the reason why I feel comfortable running with a failed thermostat and the reason why I tread with caution when it comes to dealing with the cooling system or acting as test dummy.

If my experience is a fluke, then there may be nothing to worry about but if it's not and others have experienced this same issue then it should be of concern to all of us.

maxwellp · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:44 pm

I just put an in-line thermostat in. Plus I added a 1/8 hole to it, it had the jigglier and I left that in. It was running at 1/4 on the gauge all the time and the viscous heater was running all the time and the engine was not getting to temp. MPG were 22, now it runs one tick below 1/2 way. Viscous heater does not run. MPG is up to 28 on the same trip. This is on the over head meter, but it went up. :pepper:

I have 20k before a timing belt so I will try this for some time. But when it is timing belt time I will put a new thermostat in. :lol:

Radman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:46 pm

I made the same mistake as Hoosier and did not put the clamp thinking it would not move :oops:

. After reading his post I checked mine and found it had worked its way all the way down to the radiator entrance. :banghead:

So removed and re-located with much difficulty and loss of much more coolant. So lessons learned from our mistakes... put the clamp, it is cheap insurance. Amazed how much pressure there must be in the system!

geordi · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:39 pm

16 pounds per square inch. That is about a 1.5 inch diameter hose, so do the math. It comes out to 1.76 square inches, for 28 lbs of force.

kapalczynski · **Posted:** Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:52 pm

racertracer wrote:

kapalczynski wrote:

Thankfully the CRD has a computer that will save the engine from overheating.

It didn't work on mine when I experienced my cylinder head gasket failure.

kapalczynski wrote:

At 225º it starts to cut fuel to prevent overheating

If the ECU performed this task, I didn't experience it while driving on the interstate at 75 MPH.

kapalczynski wrote:

at 239º it turns off the AC in the vehicle to further prevent overheating

It didn't happen this way.

kapalczynski wrote:

243º full fuel cut off.

This didn’t occur.

kapalczynski wrote:

After all this (for what reason i don’t know) at 244º cluster chime tells you have overheated. ;P

This did occur and the weird thing is, the temperature gauge was not in the red at this point in time.

The temperature gauge only spiked once before, with no chimes and the needle quickly repositioned itself back to its normal position just left of center.

I recall reading about another member experiencing this same situation (maybe 2 1/2 years ago), he asked if anyone else had experienced it with no replies.

He also was concerned about the temps spikes and mentioned that he didn't think the temperature gauge on the dash worked correctly because his hand held infra-red temp gauge was reading dangerously high temps when pointing at the block compared to what the temp guage on the dash was reading.

I just tried to find the posting using the search feature of this forum and gave up because the search tool stinks. If someone can find it and post the link to it here ..... great.

I am wondering if a separate temperature sensor exists on the block or somewhere else on the engine that drives the ECU indicating different temps than what the dash gauge is reporting!

Could it have been trapped air pockets?

Hence the reason why I feel comfortable running with a failed thermostat and the reason why I tread with caution when it comes to dealing with the cooling system or acting as test dummy.

If my experience is a fluke, then there may be nothing to worry about but if it's not and others have experienced this same issue then it should be of concern to all of us.

Here's a quote from GDE:

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

A picture detailing the coolant gauge temp profile with original release from Chrysler:

And one showing the temp profile after the cluster update:

It may be that the "full fuel cut" doesnt cut all fuel but rather that is the maximum it cuts fuel during a overheating condition?

Whether it has more than one temp sensor that drives the ECU and gauge differently, since a reflash changed the gauge, it seems the ECU controlls the gauge position and it gets its feed from there. If there are 2 sensors on teh heater system, that may be a question for Keith at GDE unless someone can find a reference?

As far as driving on a failed thermostat, Gerodi, my only fear on this...if its old enough to have lost spring strength and fail by opening early, it may not be long before the thermostat fails completely(wax leaks out) and you overheat due to it. The more opens and closes on the thermostat, the more wear to the piston and seal of the piston (brass) and eventually it wears enough for the wax to leak out. It could be that Jeep intended the thermostat spring to fail before this happens so people will replace the thermostat before it fails closed and causes overheating. Also of note, the piston of the thermostat seems to be extremely hard and smooth polished steel so it may last a long time. I just can't make a recommendation to chance it.

Alot of thoughts there, mainly saying what makes sense to me.

Here's a thread that has alot of good cooling info:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60943&p=676484&hilit=gauge#p676484

Gotta run to work, 120pm here.

- Mark

2mopar_diesels · **Posted:** Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:20 am

Well, I just got back from a week long 4000mi. trip/vacation to Arizona. Took it offroad 50+ miles (half of it was slow-go rock crawling/trail riding) in near 90* weather while there............many miles of uninterrupted freeway driving at speeds up to 80mph and stop/go traffic too. Mine is an un-altered 190* stat. Had not one single problem the entire time!!!!!! I fully believe the ones who've had temp spikes didn't fully bleed air out of the system after install. Just my :2cents:

maxwellp · **Posted:** Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:32 am

2mopar_diesels wrote:

Well, I just got back from a week long 4000mi. trip/vacation to Arizona. Took it offroad 50+ miles (half of it was slow-go rock crawling/trail riding) in near 90* weather while there............many miles of uninterrupted freeway driving at speeds up to 80mph and stop/go traffic too. Mine is an un-altered 190* stat. Had not one single problem the entire time!!!!!! I fully believe the ones who've had temp spikes didn't fully bleed air out of the system after install. Just my :2cents:

X2 mine has been in 1 month with no problems. I think you are correct about the the air. When it comes time for the timing belt I will most likely replace the factory one just because I am there. :pepper:

arengant · **Posted:** Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:37 am

2mopar_diesels wrote:

Well, I just got back from a week long 4000mi. trip/vacation to Arizona. Took it offroad 50+ miles (half of it was slow-go rock crawling/trail riding) in near 90* weather while there............many miles of uninterrupted freeway driving at speeds up to 80mph and stop/go traffic too. Mine is an un-altered 190* stat. Had not one single problem the entire time!!!!!! I fully believe the ones who've had temp spikes didn't fully bleed air out of the system after install. Just my :2cents:

I will be switching to the stant version (my 1/8th hole in the inline housing was too big) by next winter. Makes sense NOT to drill a hole and try running it and bleed the system before drilling a hole, you can always drill a hole later but you can't really Jbweld the hole closed :wink:

Radman · **Posted:** Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:59 pm

I guess this is a case where bigger is not better :lol:

I drilled a very samll 1/32'' and have had no issues. Last week temps got up to 80* and I still had the radiator blocked for winter. Gauge never passed the 1/2 mark.

in hose thermostat -(no housing)

Who is online