Turbocharger leaking oil from vain into inlet vent

Willis Jeep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:36 pm **Posts:** 27

I am getting two stories from 2 different mechanics. At my regular place, we've been told by the owner who worked for Chrysler for years, that our turbocharger has oil in the intake vent. He says it was significant, and that any oil is bad. He said we need to replace the turbocharger.

I called Jeep customer service and got a case manager who required me to drive an hour away to pay for a Jeep dealer to look at it. They said that there is light oil in the intake, but the shaft is okay and that oil is normal and okay.

After going to the Jeep dealer and on the way home (before talking to my mechanic), I had a strange event. I was going about 40mph and stepped on the brake. Instead of slowing, I felt a strange sensations as if I was accelerating and thought I heard the engine revving up. I thought I was crazy or possibly stepping on the accelerator by accident! But, I wasn't. After more pressure on the brake and a few seconds, I began to slow.

When I got home, I called my mechanic back, and he said that the amount of oil can change depending on how I was driving the vehicle, and that it doesn't matter how much was in there, it's leaking. He said that the concern is that the diesel can actually run off the oil in the intake, and, in one scenario, could cause a run-away.

I feel that one mechanic says it is dangerous and the turbocharger is bad. The other is saying it is normal and no problem.

What do you think about this?

VMKJCRD · **Posted:** Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:03 pm

The oil you're seeing comes from the CCv puck and it shouldn't be there even though it was the way they designed it. It will start to root out the hoses if it hasn't already. When you get a chance check your intercooler hose by squeezing it or better yet removing it from the intercooler and looking inside the hose. If its oily that means its time for the elephant hose mode or a Provent. Do a search on the forums for them. Lots of good information about the elephant hose mode and Provent. The first mechanic is out of his mind saying that you need a new turbo, either that or he's looking to make some good money.

Hope this helps!

geordi · **Posted:** Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:54 pm

Both mechanics have missed the boat on a proper diagnosis.

First off: Your turbo is JUST FINE. I know this for a FACT.

Second: Chrysler, whether the corporate "never-touched-a-wrench" crowd or the "barely-know-what-a-wrench-is" dealer crowd... DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT OUR DIESELS.
You'd think I would be wrong about that, but think about this: Have you ever worked in the engine of say... a 1985 DeLorean? Ok... Now, I am "Chrysler Corporate" and you are the dealer mechanic. I'm going to "train" you to work on that 1985 DeLorean... Using nothing more than a 90 minute video (Of which the DeLorean is only a small part) and give you a short quiz. There ya go, you are now "trained" to work on this rare and beautiful engine!

Could you say that you knew anything about it, especially after waiting possibly YEARS to ever see your first one in real life? This is EXACTLY what Chrysler has done, and there are less than 20,000 of these in the ENTIRE USA. The chances of finding a tech that has actually WORKED on them is rare indeed.

Have a question about your CRD? COME HERE AND ASK. If it involves the CRD, we have the answer, 100% of the time. This isn't being prideful... It is simply a fact.

Now... About your CRD - VMKJCRD is correct, the oil in your turbo is coming directly from the CCV - That stupid black hockey puck on the back of the engine. You will want to get some blue nitrile gloves before messing with these next steps, this will be new definitions of filth to dig in.

Pull your airbox out, and remove the top intercooler hose (with that chinese finger puzzle crap on it) and set it aside for the moment. It WILL have oil inside it, that is perfectly normal at this point. Don't worry about it yet.

Pull the airbox-to-turbo hose. THIS is where it starts getting really disgusting. How is the turbo-end of that hose looking? Not much left, is there? Yea... That hose is natural rubber, dissolved by the oil from the CCV. $60 at the dealer, sorry. When you get the new one - PLUG that small hole with a modern rubber wine cork, and saw off the end of the cork with a knife. You don't ever want that connected again, do you? Use some 3/4" ID braided vinyl hose from Home Depot to connect to the CCV (use a hose clamp too) and route that hose over the engine and under the CRD somewhere. I have mine tied to the frame back by the rear driver's side door. This is called an Elephant Hose Mod or EHM.

Now... Back to the intercooler hoses. Pull the OTHER intercooler hose off, the one going to the engine intake.

PUSH the chinese finger puzzle off both of these hoses. Is it REALLY nasty and disgusting, almost growing hair made of filth? I suspect so... Which means that these hoses are already allowing the oil *through* the walls of the hose, forced by the high pressure from the inside. This makes the hoses porous, which makes the oil contamination worse, which leads to larger holes... Which then bursts the side of the hose out.

Press your thumb into the outside of the hose HARD, and feel all over both of them for any particularly soft spots. That will be either a current hole, or one that will soon exist. The chinese finger puzzle on the outside is not needed, it is an attempt at abrasion guarding... But what it actually does is capture the oil and hold it against the hose, accelerating the damage from the oil.

Replacement hoses are available from a company called SAMCO and are made of oil-proof silicone and MUCH nicer. WHEN (not if) the oil finishes killing your boost hoses, the result will be a sudden loss of power, black smoke, and codes for underboost. This is all normal and preventable. As for the oil within your turbo, it will go away on its own, and it is not harmful to the turbo itself. Our turbos DO NOT have any kind of rubber seals in them, they are sealed by tightly machined tolerances, and do not leak any oil in normal operation. ALL that oil came from the CCV.

Such a great design from the EPA and Chrysler, isn't it?

GreenDieselEngineering · **Joined:** Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:10 pm **Posts:** 1111

If you keep the oil level in the sump 1/4" below the max line, the CCV will by-pass less oil vapor. The SAMCOS are a good preventative measure, the stock hoses are garbage. If the turbo is making boost and you have power, it is fine. How many miles on your CRD?

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:13 am

To expand on geordi's post a little further....

Speaking of oil in the inlet side of your turbo, get some CRC Brake Parts Cleaner (red can) and spray some into your inlet onto the compressor wheel and clean the outlet as best as you can with some shop towels. You really don't want any oil in this area, it is an impediment to good air flow.

After cleaning and while you have both the "Fresh Air Hose" for the turbo inlet and the Compressor Outlet-to-CAC Hose off and out of the way, reach into your turbo inlet and touch the nut there in center with your thumb, index and second fingers. While you should feel some SLIGHT movement up/down and side-to-side, the compressor wheel should not be touching the compressor housing. You should also be able to turn this wheel and shaft with very little effort while touching it. While turning the wheel and moving it around, if you hear any scrapping of the vains against the housing, then you should worry. The clearance will be tight, but the key here is does it touch? Also look at the vains themselves. Are there any chunks off of the edges (unlikely) If all this looks good, then your turbo is okay.

The combination of the EHM, a new pair of air hoses at the turbo and a good de-greasing will allow for good air movement into and out of the compressor housing. The CAC-to-Engine Intake hose will round out the trio of air hoses that need changing as already stated. Hope this helps.

FWIW,

Hoosier CRD

Willis Jeep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:36 pm **Posts:** 27

GreenDieselEngineering wrote:

If you keep the oil level in the sump 1/4" below the max line, the CCV will by-pass less oil vapor. The SAMCOS are a good preventative measure, the stock hoses are garbage. If the turbo is making boost and you have power, it is fine. How many miles on your CRD?

I have just over 92,000 miles.

So, I was a mechanic's daughter and owned a bicycle shop and have done things like change an alternator in an old Ford Fairmont, but I am having to learn all this lingo you are using. After reading several posts on this forum, I'm beginning to understand what is going on, but labeled pictures of all the parts would be much more up my alley. Is there a picture of a modified engine with the Provent oil/air separater and labels for all the parts?

CCV means Crankcase Vent, correct?

Also, if I take this info to my mechanic instead of trying to do it myself, how much time do you think it would take him? I'm trying to figure out if it is worth it to have them do it instead of me. I'm game to do it, but I have huge pressures on my time and money right now (seems like everything in the house is breaking down) and I'm just not sure if I can tackle it any time soon and wondering how much time I have before a hose busts open.

Also, I am partial to preserving the environment. Is this the best way?

VMKJCRD · **Posted:** Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:46 am

Sir Sams Noob guide has lots of useful information on our little tractors.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=54207
When you click on the link it will take you there and on his first post you'll see an image that will show you the hockey puck looking thing called the CCV.

The cheapest way to go is the ehm (Elephant Hose Mod). Any 5 dollars will get you a 3/4" hose from homedepot or any autoparts store. Connect that to the CCV with the hose clap and run it down the engine bay. The hose you'll be disconnecting from the CCV has to be pluged, some including myself used a wine cork. Sounds strange but it works. Its a very simple install. The EHM will dump the oily fumes into the air and will start dripping oil on your driveway. Probably not your choice.

The Provent system will run you 170 dollars plus shipping and you have to buy a filter every year depending on how saturated it gets from the oil.
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/advanced ... nt&x=0&y=0
This filters out the oil, collects the oil, and sends the clean air back to be burned. The only thing you really have to worry about with this after installing is changing the filter and draining the oil it collects. Here is an installation of the provent.
http://www.auerbach.ca/kj/provent/

Also at 92,000 miles you many want to start thinking about getting your timing belt changed. Last thing you want is to have the belt break and that's where the $$$$$ with start rolling out of your pockets.

hope this helps

mikey1273 · **Posted:** Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:53 pm

Geordi

your comparison to a 1985 DeLorean DMC-12 is funny since there really never was such a thing. they were last VINed and sold with titles for model year 1983.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeLorean_Motor_Company

but yeah Our Jeeps are almost that rare in the USA

Willis Jeep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:36 pm **Posts:** 27

You guys are a wealth of information. Very helpful. I still have some reading and learning to do with what you've given me and some discussions with my spouse, but I'll definitely come back to ask more in order to get this figured out and done. Definitely oil on the carport is not going to work for us. It'll have to be the more expensive route. But, again, do you think I could handle it on my own? How much time do you think it should take a newbie from beginning to end?

Also, thanks for the heads-up about the timing belt. I had to do that with our van. So, can a newbie handle that, or would I need specialized tools.. Would it be better to let the Jeep dealer do it, or my other former Chrysler mechanic instead of me?

And, a personal question - with the price of diesel going up, why do each of you prefer to keep your CRD?

geordi · **Posted:** Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:54 am

That last question is the easiest one: Masochism mostly. Faced with the sad fact that there really isn't another vehicle on the market that combines the towing power, handling, unloaded economy, and raw "don't give a crap, I'm driving through that" attitude... Most of us have just realized that we are going to have to suck it up if we want all those other things, take the bad with the good.

Diesel has always been about doing more. The price sucks, but it isn't more expensive than gas yet - dollar for dollar, BTU for BTU, it would need to be about 75 cents more per gallon to match gasoline. It does that much more.

As for repairing it... Do it yourself, or ask on here if there is anyone near you.

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER take it to anyone Chrysler-branded, dealers WILL BREAK THINGS and do not have ONE SOLITARY CLUE about our vehicles.

The timing belt is not an easy task, but it can be handled if you know your way around a wrench and can read instructions and fully comprehend BEFORE touching a wrench. There are special tools involved, I do not support or suggest the use of "alternative" replacements, b/c the results have been spotty, and the downside of those results is a $1200 replacement of all the rocker arms PLUS doing the timing the right way after screwing it up. We can help you, but you should NEVER trust a dealer monkey to do anything but empty your wallet.

Willis Jeep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:36 pm **Posts:** 27

NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER take it to anyone Chrysler-branded, dealers WILL BREAK THINGS and do not have ONE SOLITARY CLUE about our vehicles.

The timing belt is not an easy task, but it can be handled if you know your way around a wrench and can read instructions and fully comprehend BEFORE touching a wrench. There are special tools involved, I do not support or suggest the use of "alternative" replacements, b/c the results have been spotty, and the downside of those results is a $1200 replacement of all the rocker arms PLUS doing the timing the right way after screwing it up. We can help you, but you should NEVER trust a dealer monkey to do anything but empty your wallet.[/quote]

I hear you. I just got charged $120 for nothing because the Jeep case manager insisted I go there to be told that I had a little oil in my intake vent and that my window was now working. I pretty uptight about that since I already new the one thing and the other they screwed up. I argued with the case manager and told him I already knew the problems, but he insisted he couldn't do anything for me unless I did this. Now I have to fight for them to reimburse me for that money.

Times like this sure make me wish my dad had lived long enough to teach me more in person - or that I had wanted to learn when I was a teenager and was still at home.
Wish I had found you before going to the dealer.

Willis Jeep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:36 pm **Posts:** 27

geordi wrote:

As for repairing it... Do it yourself, or ask on here if there is anyone near you.

The timing belt is not an easy task, but it can be handled if you know your way around a wrench and can read instructions and fully comprehend BEFORE touching a wrench. There are special tools involved, I do not support or suggest the use of "alternative" replacements, b/c the results have been spotty, and the downside of those results is a $1200 replacement of all the rocker arms PLUS doing the timing the right way after screwing it up. We can help you, but you should NEVER trust a dealer monkey to do anything but empty your wallet.

Alright, if you don't mind, could you both tell me someone near Eureka Springs, Arkansas? And, could you tell me how to do the timing belt myself. That way, if I try it and can't accomplish it, I've got some back-up.

naturist · **Posted:** Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:03 pm

@Willis Jeep, if you are partial to the environment, install a Provent rather than doing an EHM. Most of the pollution from an internal combustion engine comes out the CCV in the form of oil vapors. A Provent will catch the lion's share rather than merely dumping it into MY air.

And for what it is worth, it would be illegal for your mechanic to perform the EHM. It is illegal for you to do it, too, for that matter.

The guys are right, however, about the source of the oil and that it is unlikely your turbo is the problem. If you want to confirm that, however, when you pull those hoses, check the turbo shaft for play. If it wiggles at all side to side, and only if it wiggles, it needs replaced. If you find no play whatever side to side, and only the barest hair front to back, the turbo is fine.

The timing belt job is not rocket science, but it does require special tools and someone willing to do it "by the book." This includes final adjustments by computer, and NOT by the "mark and pray" method. It also absolutely must be done when it is due. If it breaks on you in service, the damage can be very expensive.

msilbernagel · **Posted:** Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:04 pm

naturist wrote:

...The timing belt job is not rocket science, but it does require special tools and someone willing to do it "by the book." This includes final adjustments by computer, and NOT by the "mark and pray" method. It also absolutely must be done when it is due. If it breaks on you in service, the damage can be very expensive.

Second the 'mark and pray' comment, though the fastidious / detail-oriented seem to make that work; seems risky to me given the downside...

Re: 'final adjustments by computer' - I've not heard that one before, nor seen it in the FSM.

How does that work?

Thx - Mark

mikey1273 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:04 am

Willis Jeep wrote:

You guys are a wealth of information. Very helpful. I still have some reading and learning to do with what you've given me and some discussions with my spouse, but I'll definitely come back to ask more in order to get this figured out and done. Definitely oil on the carport is not going to work for us. It'll have to be the more expensive route. But, again, do you think I could handle it on my own? How much time do you think it should take a newbie from beginning to end?

Also, thanks for the heads-up about the timing belt. I had to do that with our van. So, can a newbie handle that, or would I need specialized tools.. Would it be better to let the Jeep dealer do it, or my other former Chrysler mechanic instead of me?

And, a personal question - with the price of diesel going up, why do each of you prefer to keep your CRD?

I stick with my CRD because no other vehicle its size can do all it can tow and off road or be made a little better for off road for a bit of time and money. no other small suv as capable can get near 30MPG or 30+ MPG highway unloaded with the ECO tune. Diesel is more BTU per gallon and can do more more efficiently than gas can. yes diesel is less refined should be cheaper to make and buy as it once was. as far as price gas is going up too. but what I am seeing in my area is that as gas goes up diesel goes up to but not a much. example.... in the last week regular 87 unleaded has went up to $3.999/gallon and no station has yet dared to go north of $4.00 for regular. diesel has been over $4 for a few weeks longer in the range of $4.099 to $4.259 for well over a month. while 87 gas is 9/10 of a cent shy of $4 the spread between gas and diesel has shrunk some. so while we are all paying more still the cost on us has gone up less for diesel and we get better mileage than the gassers do so its not pinching me as hard as if I got less from gasoline.

As far as repair work do as much your self as you can. if you must go to a shop find one that has worked on diesels, Sprinter CRD, VW TDI and MB diesel are sumilar to our engine. if you can find a shop that works on them willing to work on it you should be better off than with a dealer that never seen a CRD. No dealers unless they had worked on several.

Hoosier CRD · **Posted:** Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:31 am

[quote="naturist]
The guys are right, however, about the source of the oil and that it is unlikely your turbo is the problem. If you want to confirm that, however, when you pull those hoses, check the turbo shaft for play. If it wiggles at all side to side, and only if it wiggles, it needs replaced. If you find no play whatever side to side, and only the barest hair front to back, the turbo is fine.
[/quote]

@Naturist: In all due respect, regarding the above statement on the turbo shaft play, you're out of your depth. I work for a diesel engine component repair facility. I see turbos frequently and we diagnose component failure, including turbos, daily. Shaft movement, i.e. up/down or side/side IS NORMAL. There must be some room in all of the components, i.e. between shaft bearing and shaft for oil to reside. Thrust movement, i.e. front to back on horizontal plane should be minimal, i.e. no more than .003, or 3 thousandths of an inch. As stated in my above post, as long as the compressor wheel, the silver one that you see when the fresh air hose is removed, DOES NOT touch the Compressor housing, then the turbo is fine. Telling Willis Jeep to replace an expensive component such as a turbo due to some shaft wiggle is highly inaccurate. It is a rare occurrence when a turbo is replaced before catastrophic failure, including the Jeep Liberty CRD.

Now, with all that said, IF oil continues to show up on the compressor side of the turbo after all is well cleaned, then, yes, there could be SOME justification for replacement of the turbo prior to catastrophic failure. Most times when a turbo fails, oil will go out the exhaust/turbine side and into the exhaust.

Given that Willis Jeep is having "Murphy" show up at her house on a regular basis, I vote for catastrophic failure to occur to the turbo before changing it is warranted.

Now as to the timing belt, changing it at the 100K interval is well advised. It sounds like she has some time before that happens.

Hoosier CRD

papaindigo · **Posted:** Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:39 pm

Willis Jeep - I'll try to add a bit of clarity on several points:
1) yes check Sir Sam's NOOB guide and while there download copies of the 05 and 06 FSM (the 05 lacks diesel cooling system data and general diagnostics but has illustration keys while the 06 is the reverse). Be advised the manuals are grossly off in several places on torque values for several fasteners so think before depending on the manual; if the recommended torques seems way too high it probably is or at least is worth checking the forum.
2) apparent acceleration while brakeing. I've experienced the same thing on several vehicles. The common thread seems to be 1) anti-lock brakes which means the brake pedal tends to go much further down than not anti-lock brake pedals and 2) closely or closer than they were on older vehicles brake and throttle pedals on automatic transmission vehicles. What happens is that unless your foot is squarely on the brake pedal as that pedal is depressed the right edge of you shoe catches the throttle and you wind up pressing both. Rather unnerving.
3) oil comes out of the CCV puck into the air box to turbo hose right in front of the turbo and then goes thru the turbo and hoses to/from the intercooler. Hence some oil in front of the turbo is normal. NOTE - as GDE notes excessive oil added during oil changes goes straight thru the CCV to the turbo - full fill regardless of dipstick is 6.3qts for a stock filter or 7qts for oversize. Oil tends to rot the air box to turbo hose (OEM is only replacement - it fails right at the clamp to the turbo) and the intercooler hoses (SAMCO's are IMHO the best replacements - the OEM hoses get soggy with oil and get holes on the bottom side resulting in lost boost, low power, smoke, and various engine codes)
4) a tiny bit of shaft play on the turbo is normal, vane to wall contact is a death sentence. My old OEM turbo (running fine when geordi and I took it out to install GED turbo at 44.5K miles) has just the slightest bit of in/out play and no side to side play that I can feel by hand.
5) EHM mod keeps oil out of the hoses but drips oil and tends to smell. Provent is good but pricey. There are homemade options to Provent (some PVC pipe with fittings and a bit of kitchen sink steel wool as filter and a drain plug on the bottom) check around on the forum, if you need help on that PM or email me.
6) I keep mine as opposed to my old Dodge Cummins because it will tow my boat, wife's Honda Element won't, and it get's better mpg than the Element not to mention that it's a lot smaller in a parking lot than the Dodge ever was.
7) timing belt replacement is tedious but not technically difficult provided you use the right tools which can be rented from GDE for a nominal fee or some of us will loan on-site or for a fee off-site if you are close. If you are just doing the timing belt you need the 2 cam pins, a 6mm allen key for a flywheel pin (see 05 FSM) and ideally the cam pulley holding tool just to be safe (the latter is critical if you are doing the water pump too). With one exception there are no "visible" timing marks on the engine those marks are internal (e.g at the appropriate point on a properly timed engine the 2 cam pins will engage holes in the cam shafts and the flywheel pin a hole in the flywheel); the cam pulley tool holds the cams in place while the cam bolts are tightened as the cam pulleys are not "keyed" to the cam shafts and the cam pins cannot stand the torque. The only exception is there is a mark associated with the CP3 fuel pump but it only lines up every 3rd revolution. Hence most folks who do this job use the pins/allen tool/cam pulley tool to lock things down and then witness mark stuff for an added check that nothing moves while doing the job. The job itself, excluding water pump, takes about 5 hours and the physically most challenging part is getting the mechanical fan loose. If you want "how to" writeups drop me an email/PM and I'll send you links and comments.

Read the NOOB guide and save some $s for a GDE tune.

Willis Jeep · **Joined:** Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:36 pm **Posts:** 27

I just experienced another acceleration today. Then I remembered this has happened before. We live in an extremely hilly area. Some of our streets are only accessable by 4x4s and impassible in snow. I realized that when my cruise control is on and I am climbing a hill, I hear the engine rev and accelerate, then suddenly drop off and seem to quit, then rev, then quit. It is exhausting listening to it over and over, especially when I am on one of our relatively level (only slight incline) hills. I feel certain that it shouldn't be doing this. And, I'm certain it can't be good for our fuel mileage.

geordi · **Posted:** Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:54 pm

Your cruise control operates within certain safety limits, which will cause it to act funny as you are describing. The cruise control system knows what the ground speed is, the engine RPM, and not much more. It is not allowed (by programming) to exceed certain values, such as "The cruise may not add more than 1500 RPM to the current engine speed" or something similar in the programming. If it hits one of those limits, it will cut the fuel flow suddenly.

You could theoretically set the cruise for 70mph, stop somewhere, and hit the "resume" key after you were above 27mph (the lower speed cut off)... And the engine would basically get floored to accelerate to your speed, once the cruise system started accelerating. The cruise will start off in whatever the current gear / throttle setting is, but it will add fuel (throttle) rapidly to try and get the speed to the set point, possibly hitting that safety limit in the process. Add in hills and changing load conditions, and this can lead to very erratic performance.

The best advice? Use your foot as the cruise control, except on generally flat ground. It doesn't do well for the mileage in hilly terrain, your foot will do a LOT better.

Turbocharger leaking oil from vain into inlet vent

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